CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR
CHRISTIE continued:
Q. Just answer my question.
A. It is better if
I show it as it was, because you don't seem to
remember what I said here yesterday.
THE COURT:
Just a moment. I think that perhaps you can answer the
question unless you are going to say something
different than what you have already pointed out as to
what occurred on the ramp with respect to what you
have called, in essence, the selection process.
THE WITNESS: Right. I said I can do it without the
map.
THE COURT: Oh, good.
THE WITNESS:
You reminded me of that. I explained, in detail, that
a selection was made on the ramp, and that from the
ramp those who were selected for work were marched
off. They were marched off either in Auschwitz I, I
said, or to Auschwitz II.
Q. Birkenau.
A. Yes.
Q. Well, they could also ---
A.
But some were marched off to Buna.
Q. Excuse me,
some were marched off to Buna?
A. That's right.
Q. I spelled Raisko incorrectly. It should be
Rajsko.
A. Right.
Q. Now, that was a
camp, wasn't it?
A. Rajsko was a Polish name
for Birkenau, and it is one of, as far as I could see
from the neo-Nazi literature which I perused, I could
see that this is one of the swindles of the neo-Nazis,
because Rajsko was first erased. This was a village on
the map. On the map before 1942 you will find Rajsko
as a village.
Q. Do you know how many satellite
camps there were to Auschwitz generally?
A.
I've heard about twenty-seven satellite camps for
slave labour.
Q. Do you know how many people
were in them?
A. I don't have the statistics at
the hand.
Q. Do you know that anyone who came
to Auschwitz could have gone to any one of those
satellite camps, or not?
A. Those who were
healthy and able and were suitable for heavy slave
labour went there, and when they were finished with
their ability to work hard, they came back to Birkenau
and were gassed in the same crematoria which I showed
you. So on the way back, sometime there were even,
knowing the confusion in the German administration,
created often artificially, we could even speak with
them. From them we heard that they were in some
coal-mines close by of Auschwitz. From them we heard
that they were in some factories, close by from
Auschwitz, and when they couldn't work any more
further they were brought back to Auschwitz and gassed.
Q. I put it to you that there were thirty-nine
auxiliary camps attached to the main camp of Auschwitz
in the immediate vicinity.
A. Camps for work?
Q. Camps for work and camps for rest and other
camps, sir.
A. Camps for slave labour there
were around thirty. Can you name me one camp for rest?
Q. Were you in them?
A. No, I was not in
them.
Q. Then how can you tell us what went on
in them except hearsay?
A. Because a number of
people who worked there ---
Q. Told you about
it.
A. --- came for gassing to Auschwitz and
from them we heard what is going there, but the
neo-Nazi literature would pretend that it was, perhaps,
because it was completely covered up in secrecy, the
ruthless slave labour that it was a rest place for
children. And where are the children, then? Can you
bring me one child who was resting there?
Q. I
can tell you one child who went through Auschwitz and
didn't die, and that's called Anne Frank. Do you deny
that?
A. I didn't meet Anne Frank.
Q.
Well, you asked me if I knew of any. I put it to you
Anne Frank was in Auschwitz and wasn't killed there
and was moved to another camp where she later died. Do
you deny that?
THE COURT: Just a moment, please.
There is a good reason that Courts say that witnesses
answer questions and don't ask questions of their own,
Doctor. Please resist asking Counsel questions. You
are here to answer them not to ask them.
THE
WITNESS: Thank you for your advice.
Q. MR
CHRISTIE: How many people died of typhus?
A.
They died in thousands, but I don't have exact figures.
Q. Isn't it true that thousands of people who died
were buried not far from the camp, and they had to be
exhumed and their bodies burned because they were
polluting the water supply?
A. It is true that
before I came to Auschwitz, and indeed, that was the
reason why I came to Auschwitz from Maidenek
concentration camp, they needed four hundred men.
Q. And you volunteered.
A. Yes. First for
so-called fieldwork, for work in field, and when we
came to Auschwitz it turned out that before the
Auschwitz started, many thousands of Russian prisoners
of war who were murdered by the Nazi machinery, they
buried them in the vicinity of the Auschwitz and then
they came to the idea that it was not good to have a
mass grave, so they used the slave labour, the
prisoners who they brought from Maidenek, to bring up
the bodies and burn them.
Q. Now you are
telling us that thousands of people died of typhus and
you don't know how many. Is that right?
A.
That's right.
Q. That was an epidemic in 1942,
I gather, before you were brought to Birkenau; is that
right?
A. No. there might have been an epidemic
before I was brought to Birkenau, but there one
in August 1944. (1942)
Q. That was before you
were brought to Birkenau.
A. That's right.
Q. Now, isn't it true that the epidemic of which
you speak claimed lives at a rapid rate and that
typhus was spread from lice?
A. That's quite so
Q. Do you recall being in the bathhouse known as
the sauna for some reason?
A. Yes.
Q.
Were you there?
A. Yes.
Q. The one I am
speaking about is the one that was shown on the very
detailed map that we took from the Phillip Mueller
book.
A. Yes.
Q. You were in the sauna
or bath in that place?
A. I was in the bath
which was adjacent to the Krematorium III and IV.
Q. All right. That one had roads that went to it,
didin't it?
A. What do you mean, roads? Within
the confines of Krematorium III and IV there were,
naturally, the whole confine was not bigger than,
perhaps, ten times of this room, and there were,
naturally, footpaths. There were even flowers planted
in front of the crematoria so that the deception could
work better. There were even trees planted.
Q.
There was a sport field beside Krema III, sir, wasn't
there?
A. I haven't seen it.
Q. You
never went there.
A. No.
Q. Nobody ever
played sports there?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. You deny that other survivors say they've
played sports there?
A. Not to me, but it is
quite possible that some of them did play sports.
Q. Right beside the crematoria, in fact. I put it
to you ---
A. I don't have that information.
Q. You don't have that information.
A. No.
Q. I put it to you that the reason for those
crematoria was to deal with the bodies of people who
had died from typhus.
A. This is ridiculous.
Q. What?
A. This is a ridiculous statement.
Q. What else do you think they did with the bodies
of people who died from typhus in the thousands, sir?
A. They burned them together with the people who
did not die of it.
Q. How many of those who
died ended up in Fred Wetzler's crematoria who you say
held three or four thousand bodies a day?
A.
The crematirium bodies varied roughly over months. For
example, in 1943 sitting in t crematoria with Fred
Wetzler, the mortality would be three hundred to four
hundred a day, sometimes five hundred, but in May of
the same year, after Camp Commander Hoess was
withdrawn and the second Commander was put into
command, the mortality dropped that one day. In May
there was not a natural death. It was quite empty.
So the mortality dropped because, (a), the frost
went away, the winter passed by, and (b), the new
commander said, "What's happening in the gas chamber
is one thing, but I don't want that a prisoner should
be beaten unnecessarily." Consequently the mortality
among the prisoners dropped. Consequently there was
not one day when there was not one person killed in
Birkenau, so the mortality rate in Birkenau was
subject to great swings.
Q. You give us to
believe that there were 1,765,000 corpses of gassed
Jews to which we must add whoever died of natural
causes, sometimes at the rate of five hundred a day.
A. Yes.
Q. And whoever wasn't a Jew and was
gassed, we have to add that too.
A. Yes.
Q. And that's in two years. Right?
A. I beg
your pardon? I don't understand your question?
Q. You don't understand my question?
A. No.
Q. You gave us the figure of 1,765,000 corpses who
were gassed in your War Refugee Board Report. Correct?
A. That's right.
Q. That must be added to
five hundred a day in some cases, of other caused
deaths. Correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And
then you also have to add all the non-Jewish corpses,
those who were dead; right?
A. That's right.
Q. So now we have in your two-year period in
Auschwitz and in Birkenau at least 1,765,000 corpses.
Right?
A. More than that.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
More than that.
A. More than that. Not during
the ---
Q. Let's just deal with one thing at a
time.
A. Okay.
Q. Now, you told us in
the War Refugee Board Report that there were
thirty-six furnaces -- yes, thirty-six -- and it took
an hour and a half to burn three corpses in each
furnace. Right?
A. That's right.
Q. You
later said, having seen the plans, I suppose, that
there were fifteen crematorium ovens. Right?
A.
No. Where did I say so?
Q. In your book. We
went over that yesterday.
A. Mm-hmmm.
Q.
Do you deny it today?
A. I don't deny anything.
Q. All right. Well, just deal with the truth. I am
asking you whether today you are denying that
yesterday you agreed that in your book you came to the
conclusion there were fifteen ovens.
A. Would
you show it in my book?
Q. You don't remember?
A. No.
Q. Well, then, how can you not
remember from one day to the next what you say, and
yet you can tell us what you counted forty-five years
ago?
A. Because what I have seen with my eyes
is firmly embedded in my memory. This means when I
have counted 1,765,000 people, I saw them, but inside
of the crematoria I didn't see.
Q. Yes. So you
saw 1,765,000 people.
A. According to my count.
Q. Yes. They were Jews, though; right? Just Jews,
according to the War Refugee Board Report that you
tell us in your count.
A. That's right.
Q. So they weren't gentiles; these were Jews.
A. Yes.
Q. You can tell the difference and you
made the distinction between Jews and gentiles in that
number?
A. I didn't make the difference in that
number. I only said that 1,765,000 Jews were gassed in
the gas chambers. The difference between Jews and
non-Jews was made by Nazis and not by me, as you know.
Q. Well, why didn't you count all the people, then,
who were gassed in gas chambers?
A. They were
counted perfectly well, because if you look, for
instance, into my book, I mention that apart from the
1,765,000 Jews who were gassed there, about 350,000
prisoners died ---
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. --- in
the concentration camp Auschwitz, and a good deal of
them were not Jews but Poles, Frenchmen, Czechs,
etcetera.
Q. Okay. We will deal with that. You
asked me where in the book you said fifteen ovens. I
am showing you where it says in my copy. We have to go
through this procedure every time of checking with
your copy, but do that if you will.
A. So it is
written fifteen ovens which could burn three bodies
each simultaneously in twenty minutes.
Q.
That's right.
A. And how many ovens were there,
in your opinion?
THE COURT: NO.
Q. MR
CHRISTIE: I am asking you because you are the witness,
and you said it in the War Refugee Board Report.
A. Yes.
Q. All right. What made you change
your mind from thirty-six ovens to fifteen, if you
haven't been there since?
A. The fifteen are
here. Where is the thirty-six?
Q. In the War
Refugee Board Report it says thirty-six.
A.
Would you show it to me in the War Refugee Board
Report? I have a copy of it here. You show it to me.
Q. Page 14, last paragraph.
A. Page 14?
Q. Yes:
"A huge chimney rises from the
furnace room around which are grouped nine furnaces
each having four openings."
So I multiplied
nine by four and I get thirty-six.
A. One
moment.
"A huge chimney arises from the furnace
room around which are grouped nine furnaces each
having four openings. Each opening can take three
normal corpses, and after an hour and a half the
boides (bodies) are completely burned.
Right.
Q. Right. If you never went back and you never
looked at a plan, what made you change your mind about
all this?
A. I still do not see any difference
between one statement and the other.
Q. Oh, you
don't see a difference between thirty-six and fifteen.
Right?
A. Fifteen in one crematorium.
Q.
We were talking about one crematorium in the case of
the thirty-six ovens, sir.
A. You are
completely confusing me. I can't find anything of that
sort what you are saying in this report.
Q.
Sir, you gave us a description in the War Refugee
Board Report, page 14. You also gave us a diagram.
A. Yes. The diagram is here.
Q. In the
description you are talking about I will read the
whole paragraph:
"At present there are four
crematoria in operation at Birkenau, two large ones, I
and II, and two smaller ones, III and IV. Those of
type I and II consist of three parts A, the furnace
room, B, the great large hall, C, the gas chamber. A
huge chimney arises from the furnace room around which
are grouped nine furnaces each having four openings."
Now, are you not talking about the crematoria
types I and II and talking about nine furnaces with
four openings for thirty-six openings?
A. As I
explained to you yesterday, it was quite clear that
the graph which we enclosed to the War Refugee Board
was made from hearsay. We were not inside. In other
words, we cannot ---
THE COURT: Just a moment.
One at a time. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: I am
supposed to go ahead?
THE COURT: Let the
witness finish.
THE WITNESS: I have made quite
clear that as we were not allowed to inspect the
crematoria with our intention to escape, we could, in
our report, write only and make a sketch of crematoria
as we heard second-hand from people who worked inside.
What we knew for sure and for what we were
guaranteeing is that Krematoria III and Krematoria IV
was built for a capacity of two thousand bodies a day,
whereas Krematoriums IV and V were smaller with a
capacity of one thousand bodies a day.
On the
whole we were informing the public, the Allies and the
Allied governments that the crematoria together,
according to our information, were made to the maximum
capacity of burning six thousand bodies a day. We
didn't say that actually six thousand are burning a
day, because there was a considerable amount of
breakdown in that crematoria.
However, in your
quote yesterday you tried to confuse me by saying that
the crematoria I said in this report were made for six
thousand people, and then you said in my book I said
they finally had a machinery for twelve thousand
people.
Q. Yeah. That is correct.
A. And
that is perfectly true because when the Hungarian Jews
arrived in May and June 1944 ---
Q. Do you
remember the question ---
A. --- then the
crematoria were not able to burn that amount of people
who came there daily, and they had to burn the rest in
the pits around the crematoria. So I concluded that up
to twelve thousand people a day could be burned,
gassed and burned in the complex of crematoria in
Birkenau.
You, then, started to confront that
in the report I said that the maximum possible number
is six thousand, and in the book I said that the
maximum number is twelve thousand, and I am
contradicting myself. I am not contradicting myself; I
am just telling you what you don't want to understand,
and what you use for deliberate confusion, I think,
that the Nazis were more inventive than it appears.
When the Hungarian transports came in such great
masses that the crematoria couldn't take it, they
re-equipped the crematoria with additional pits around
the crematoria and were without great technical
advances, simply dug out with slave labour additional
pits, and increased the capacity of the murder complex
in Birkenau from six thousand to twelve thousand, in
no detail and without great technical measurement. And
in this difference, who is not quite clear to those
who did not study the report that went to the British
and United States government and was found there by
specialists as reliable, and my additional report
which was written after the War with additional
knowledge which I acquired when I was not in
Auschwitz, you tear out from this various quotations
in a confusing way, present it to a jury and me and to
a court, who perhaps do not know every detail of this
complex matter, and by this confusion you try to creat
(create) the impression that because there was such a
confusion, there was no burning at all obviously
everything was invented.
Q. Did you see one
body being taken out of the crematoria and hauled to
the pit?
A. This happened in May and June and
July 1944. And I escaped in April. In other words ---
Q. The answer is no.
A. In other words, I
have not present during the mass murder of the
Hungarian Jews. Indeed, my job was to escape from
Auschwitz before this mass murder started and to warn
them.
Q. In spite of the fact that you weren't
a witness to such a thing, you have told us these
things were fact. Right?
A. These things can be
considered as a fact. Also, I haven't been on the moon.
I consider it as a fact that somebody landed on the
moon, and that the picture was not made in the Star
Trek attelier because there are certain informations
that a person doesn't doubt. If I used your logic, you
can come to me and say that the earth is flat.
Everybody can see it, and I can't prove otherwise, and
the astronauts which went to the moon, they were
filled with an attelier together with Star Trek, and
all of this was invented. How can I object against
this argument? And you are coming with exactly the
same arguments here, from the four thousand Jews who
were deported in the months of May, June, July from
Hungary and into extermination camps in Auschwitz,
about twenty thousand came back from slave labour,
only four hundred thousand or so were gassed and
murdered there and there is a statement of twenty
thousand people; and if you want to know every detail
what those twenty thousand people have said and how it
was investigated and that it was photographed from the
aeroplanes by the Americans by the time it was August
and September, as those reports fully confirm, and the
statistics fully compiled in back of by Professor
Randall Brown in New York University College, so why
shouldn't I accept those facts and incorporate them
into my book as to what happened in Auschwitz after I
escaped? After all, I am not such an egomaniac that
after I left Auschwitz there was nothing left to
interest me.
Q. Are you aware of the aereal
photographs of the camp prepared by the United States
Government, a copy of which I am showing you from the
Central Intelligence Agency?
THE COURT: Just
show him the document, Mr Christie. We have been over
this before. Ask him if he recollects it.
THE
WITNESS: From the photographs which I see in front of
me and which I haven't seen before ....
Q. MR
CHRISTIE: All right. You haven't seen them before.
A. But I can remember here something.
Q.
All right.
A. I can recognize complex
Auschwitz-Birkenau, aereal view. I can recognize the
ramp and I can recognize the complex of Auschwitz I. I
can recognize -- that's about what I can recognize
here, yes.
Q. Mm-hmmm. And the date of the
photograph and the picture?
A. 26 June, 1944.
Q. Do you see a road leading out of the camp just
north of the area of the crematoria?
A. Well,
you see, I can escape without a compass and without a
light, or so probably in the girl guide in B.C.
Victoria they didn't explain to you how it is done,
but it is possible and I will tell you how it is done.
Q. I put it to you that the road is no thicker and
no thinner than the road leading into it at the bottom
of the picture.
A. This is not at all. You can
see here heavy road coming in the camp, and narrow
passes coming out from the camp.
Q. Thank you.
MR CHRISTIE: Could I use that as an exhibit,
please, Your Honour?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR
CHRISTIE: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Any aereal
specialist will give you better advice on that.
MR CHRISTIE: Yes. Thank you very much.
THE
COURT: That will be Exhibit No. 27.
MR
GRIFFITHS: Is that the photograph with the CIA
interpretation, or just the photograph, just so I'm
clear, Your Honour?
THE COURT: Just the
photograph, unless and until you look at it, and
unless you ---
MR CHRISTIE: What I could do is
put it in for identification, and I can call evidence
on that point later, perhaps.
THE COURT: The
photograph only, for the moment, until counsel have
seen it; but do not take it apart. Just hold it for
the moment, Madam Clerk. It is the photograph only
which is to be the exhibit at this time.
---
EXHIBIT NO. 27: Excerpt from document showing
photograph of Auschwitz-Birkenau complex
Q. MR
CHRISTIE: Witness, you say that you saw 1,765,000 Jews
go into the area of the crematorium, and you are
asking us to believe that you did that by counting
each and every one of them.
A. To make a
statistics clandestinely of a highly secret murder,
committed by a ruthless and large organization over
two years, is a question which requires some
circumspection and cannot be answered in one or two
sentences, but if you wish to know every detail how
the statistics which are recorded in this report were
made by me and Wetzler, I can give you an explanation,
a lecture about it.
Q. I asked you a question
about it. Did you count each one of them?
THE
COURT: Doctor, you can answer that question without
difficulty. Please do it.
THE WITNESS: I
counted reliably at least eighty per cent of it, and
at least the remaining twenty per cent of it was seen
by Wetzler and most of it was seen by both of us. So
you can double check the figures.
Q. So you can
double check the figures.
A. By many other ways,
too.
Q. Did they come in trucks, or did they
come on foot?
A. As I explained to you
yesterday, and you seem to have forgotten, the mass of
the victims came in cattle trucks, in trains. However,
there were exceptional cases. There were exceptional
cases when they came on trucks.
Q. Now, isn't
it your evidence, from a previous occasion, that a
hundred people were put on each truck and you counted
the trucks?
A. I said on previous occasion that
in each truck there were sixty -- you mean cattle
truck?
Q. No. The trucks that you said came
from the ramps. You referred to them as dump trucks.
A. That's right dump trucks.
Q. You said
there were a hundred people in each one and you
counted by that method?
A. That's right.
Q. 17,650 trucks? Are you telling us that you
counted 17,650 trucks?
A. No. A considerable
part of my method consisted also of other measurements.
For instance, when I went out to the ramp ---
Q. I didn't ask you about other methods. I asked you
about that specific method. Thank you.
A. I
didn't go by just this parameter. I had other
parameters in order to check and double check these
figures.
Q. I will ask you if I may ---
A. You're welcome. You may learn something new.
Q. Is it your evidence that you kept a record in
some written form, or is it all mental note?
A.
To keep records in written form about murder in
Auschwitz ---
Q. --- would be dangerous, so ---
A. --- was to ask for death.
Q. So you
didn't.
A. No. I relied on my memory.
Q.
Therefore it was all a matter of memory.
A.
That's right.
Q. And the matter of memory was
such that over the two years you could be sure of the
numbers of trucks and transports.
A. Absolutely.
Q. You never wrote it down anywhere?
A. It
was not necessary until I wrote this down, because I
have special mnemonic principles that are simple, so
simple that you might understand it, perhaps.
Q. One of the things you did in the camp was to learn
how to tell lies very effectively, wasn't it?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. One of the methods to
survive in the camp was to learn how to lie very
effectively?
A. Are you making innuendos that I
was a liar?
Q. I asked you a specific question,
that's all. You had to lie very effectively so that
you had to get ahead in the camp?
A. I don't
understand what you are meaning. Give me an example.
Q. Well, did you have to lie to the guards and lie
to the Kapos and lie to the authorities above you, and
perhaps even lie to the people around you?
A.
You mean that I didn't go to the camp commander and
told him that my real intention is to escape from this
camp, that I do not approve of the murders which is
going on there, that I pretend that I am a slave
labourer who has got no other interest than to find a
scrap of food and can't think, and if you say that
that was a lie, well, I would say that you might have
here some point.
In other words, in the face of
a ruthless enemy of a ruthless murderer who doesn't
believe into God and has got no inhibitions whatsoever,
if he knows he can get away with it, it would be most
imprudent to open my mind and warn him that my
intention is to oppose him.
Q. Is that why you
developed your memory techniques?
A. This was a
part of it. I had to develop my memory techniques if I
wanted to oppose their objective, and their objective
was to keep the secret of Auschwitz.
Q. If you
wanted to keep yourself safe you had to develop the
memory techniques so that you could keep your lies
straight?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. You
had to develop a memory technique so you could keep
your lies straight and survive in the camp?
A.
Keep what?
Q. In order to keep alive in the
camp you had to develop a memory technique so that you
could keep your lies straight?
A. My lies
straight?
Q. That's right.
A. You are
saying I have been lying?
Q. That's right, sir;
but I am suggesting that you have developed a
technique to keep your lies straight.
A. I am
suggesting to you that, to consider a person who
fought Nazis a liar is a misuse of a free Court in
Canada.
Q. So because you fought the Nazis we
shouldn't suggest that you could be lying; is that it?
A. I fought the Nazis without telling them my real
intention, otherwise I couldn't have fought them. And
if you now, on that ground, consider me a liar, then
you will have to consider a liar every
nineteen-year-old Canadian boy who died fighting the
Nazis because he didn't tell them in advance when he
was going to attack them.
Q. Well, how many of
them died, sir?
A. Of whom?
Q. The
Canadian boys you are referring to?
A. A great
deal of them had to die.
Q. How many?
A.
It was not my job to make a statistic on that.
Q. That's right. But I will suggest to you that it's
been a well-promoted statistic that you made of
1,765,000, that that statistic is not any more known
to you than it is to anyone in this room as to how
many Canadians died.
A. Well, it is very sad.
It should be known; but I suggest there is sufficient
information about in the library if I wanted to know
how many young Canadians had put their lives down in
order to end this nightmare in Europe, and there is a
sufficient information about it in the library about
Auschwitz, too, and everybody contributed where he
was, the military organs, the military administration
kept records about it, how many soldiers they lost,
and I kept record about it, how many victims I have
seen murdered and robbed.
Also, I might say
that this is not a welcome news to you.
THE
COURT: We will adjourn for twenty minutes.
---
The jury retires. 11:40 a.m.
--- Short
adjournment.
--- Upon resuming.
--- The
jury returns. 12:10 p.m.
THE COURT: Go ahead,
Mr Christie.
Q. MR CHRISTIE: I'd like to deal
with the specific figure that you gave for the nation
of France on page 33 of your report, where you say, "Careful
estimate of the number of Jews gassed in Birkenau
between April, 1942 and April, 1944 (according to the
countries of origin)."
A. Which page is it?
Q. Page 33 of your report, the War Refugee Board
Report which you referred to as the Vrba-Wetzler
Report. Page 33 there is a list which says, "Careful
estimate of the number of Jews gassed in Birkenau
between April, 1942 and April, 1944 (according to the
countries of origin)."
A. That's right.
Q. Then it says, "France 150,000".
A. Right.
Q. Correct?
A. Right. Approximately
150,000.
Q. How did you know the country of
origin a nineteen-year-old blockschreiber in what
block number?
A. No. 15 in Block IIA.
Q.
Yes. No. 15 Block, in Block IIA. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. So you knew the country of origin.
A.
Yes.
Q. For everybody who came from France.
A. That's right.
Q. Okay.
A. I can
explain to you why.
Q. I don't need an
explanation. I just want to know if it's true.
A. Yes.
Q. You said yes.
A. Yes.
Q. That's for two years gassed Jews from France.
A. Yes.
Q. 150,000.
A. Gassed Jews
which came in trains from France.
Q. Oh, I see.
A. Because in those trains were many Polish Jews
who were refugees from Poland and came to France and
then they were caught up in France by the Nazi
machinery.
Q. All right. So you happen to know
the country of origin of the trains.
A.
Absolutely so.
Q. You seem to know everything
about the camp even from where the trains came. Right?
A. This was very easy for me to find out.
Q. I am sure it was.
A. I will explain to you
why.
Q. If you wish, later, but I have a
question for you.
A. If you wish I will.
Q. Well, I have a question dealing with 150,000
gassed Jews from France.
A. That's right.
Q. I'd like to show you a book made by Serge
Klarsfeld.
A. Yes.
THE COURT: Show him
the book.
MR CHRISTIE: Yes.
Q. Do you
recognize this book?
A. No.
Q. You don't
know anything about it?
A. No.
Q. I want
to put something to you from this book.
THE
COURT: Don't quote anything from the book. Just put
questions emanating from the book, but not from the
book directly.
MR CHRISTIE: All right.
Q. I put it to you, sir, that it is the truth and the
fact that the closest estimate we can obtain from the
best sources available, with all the transport numbers
and names and dates in France, gives us the closest
possible estimate of foreign Jews deported, Jews
without national origin deported from France, and
French Jews deported from France equalling a total for
the entire war of 75,721. Do you disagree with that?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you.
A. I disagree
with it because it is not in accordance with what I
have established.
Q. Yes. Thank you very much.
A. And it was written by people who have not seen.
Q. You are a person who has seen people.
A.
On the ramp.
Q. How do the trains differ from
Lithuania, Bohemia, Slovakia, all of which countries
of origin you identify in your report? How are they
different?
A. All right. Before the train came,
the S.S. were very informed what sort of trains will
come, and they didn't say that the train from France
will come. They said, "Tomorrow come sardines",
because people in France during the wartime did have
sardines, somehow, and in the moment when the news
that they are going to an unknown place, they tried to
accumulate certain amount of food which they take with
themselves.
For us who were working on the ramp,
naturally, the food which they brought with them was
very important. Unfortunately, they did not eat the
food as they went mostly to the gas chamber, and the
food was confiscated, but we paid close attention to
the question of food because we were starving people,
and the S.S. paid a close attention to that question.
Consequently, when the S.S. started to speak, "You
are going to the ramp. Sardines are coming", I knew it
was a transport from France and I knew that that night,
if I am lucky, I will steal some sardine conserve.
When a transport came from Greece they were
speaking of cigarettes, and France not much;
consequently, the Greek transport was a supply of
cigarettes not only for the S.S. but also the
prisoners who whenever they can put their hands on the
goods too.
When a transport came from Slovakia,
one spoke about Slivovitz.
THE COURT: What is
that?
THE WITNESS: This is an alcoholic drink.
Because each family brought with them, they use it for
medicinal purposes. When somebody is very sick in
Slovakia they believe if you have a glass of it you
get better. So we knew -- I didn't answer your
question yet -- so we knew perfectly well from food.
Secondly, we knew perfectly well from the language
which they spoke. Auschwitz was full of all
nationalities, all languages are spoken, and I myself
speak seven. So it was quite clear for me and easy for
me to identify the people the moment they came out
from the train by the language they spoke.
Q.
What about the story you told us before ---
A.
And number three, they brought the luggages, and on
the luggages they brought with them, they did not
bring with them we from the Kanadakommand handled them;
and on the luggage were carefully written their names
and their addresses at home, just like everybody who
travels writes his name and address on the luggage.
So there were many, many factors which clearly,
and beyond any doubt, enabled me to establish, with
one glance, from where a particular transport is
coming.
Q. So your estimate, then, is based on
those three things the conversation, the tags on the
luggage, and the food they brought with them.
A. Not only that.
Q. More?
A. More.
Q. Tell us more. Just a moment, I will ask you
specifically, how can you tell there were a hundred
thousand from Holland? You see, that's the first one,
Holland; and Poland you say 300,000.
A. By
truck. 600,000 by train.
Q. You've told us so
far that nobody came by truck, but now you say 300,000
came by truck?
A. These are that came from the
ghettoes of Auschwitz, Sosnovitz (phonetic) and so on.
There were a number of ghettoes in close vicinity of
Auschwitz with great concentration of Jews, and
these were not transported by train, but by truck.
Q. You handled their luggage off the train, too?
A. That's right. Off the trucks.
Q. Off the
trucks.
A. Yes.
Q. You unloaded the
trucks, then.
A. No, I didn't unload those
people from the trucks. Those trucks went straight to
the crematoria, so we could see the truck only.
Q. So 300,000 went in those trucks that went
straight to the crematoria.
A. Roughly.
Q. And I suppose you saw the people being dumped into
the back to the crematoria?
A. The trucks went
into the crematoria and I didn't see any people coming
back except the empty trucks.
Q. So you didn't
see anybody going into the crematoria?
A. No.
Only the trucks loaded with people.
Q. Going
into the area of the crematoria?
A. Going into
the closed area of the crematoria.
Q. Oh, right
inside the building?
A. In front of the
building. And then they went ---
Q. Did you see
them going into the closed building?
A. When it
was day, yes. When it was night I only saw them going
into the compound.
Q. There was a compound with
a wall around it?
A. Not wall, barbed wire.
Q. So did you see the trucks going right into the
crematoria with these people on them?
A.
Perfectly so.
Q. Yes. Big, wide doors in the
crematoria, eh?
A. Not in the crematoria. There
were big, wide doors in the entrance to the compound
of the crematoria. This means that cars, the trucks
went on the main road from the main gate in Birkenau,
the last four hundred of five hundred meter, to the
crematoria, and in front of the crematoria the barbed
wire fence had a very large opening. It's a gate
through which easily a truck went by.
Q. Yeah.
So you saw three thousand trucks with a hundred people
on each one going through the gate?
A. Not in
one night, but over two years.
Q. And you
counted them and when you got to eight hundred or so,
you kept on counting and never made mistakes and kept
on counting till you got to three thousand trucks.
A. That's right.
Q. With a hundred people
on each.
A. That's right.
Q. Now you say
600,000 came from Poland by train.
A. Yes.
Q. And you counted all those, too.
A. Six
hundred ---
Q. That's what it says.
A.
Where is it?
Q. Second from the top, just under
the 300,000.
A. Yes. Because I was on the ramp.
They came with train.
Q. Sure. What about this
situation where you told us that the lady who had a
conversation with a prisoner, then the prisoner was
shot for talking to her?
A. Yes.
Q.
Without going into the conversation no doubt you can
go on about that do you remember that incident?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Any communication between
the baggage handlers and the people on the trains
resulted in being shot.
A. Usually, when it was
observed.
Q. Okay. So we have now understood
from you why there was so ready an ability to identify
the country of origin, eh?
A. There was more of
that.
Q. Just answer one other question, if you
will.
A. There was more of that. You asked me
what was ready ability. You see, from each transport
---
Q. Well, so far, let me understand you, it
was the food, in the case of Yugoslavia Slivovitz, in
case of France sardines, then there was the luggage
which you thought of next, then there was the language
which you thought of after that.
A. Yes.
Q. Anything else you want to add? You have thought
of something else?
A. Yes, I have thought of
something else.
Q. Go ahead.
A. For
instance, from each transport not from each but from
most of the transport, they chose at least a hundred
men, or two hundred men from slave labour, and these
men came into the camp. Once I became a camp registrar,
or a Blockschreibe, to say it exactly, I was writing
their cards their names, from where they are and I
spoke with them and I asked them where from they are,
if they came with their families, because their first
question was, "Where are our families? Where is my
wife? Where are my children?" So that I speak to them
like a human being, so they thought I could give them
information. And from the discussions with these
people, from the discussions with these people I was
able to confirm my observations with my eyes and come,
then, to my final conclusion about the size of the
transport and origin.
Q. Mm-hmmm. I just want
to understand clearly that you were a Blockschreiber,
you told us, right there, wasn't it?
A. No. It
was here in Block 15.
THE COURT: Referring to
Exhibit 1.
MR CHRISTIE: Exhibit 21, sir.
Q. Now, Block 15, you say?
A. Yes.
Q. That's one block in one half of -- it's BIIA, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, how many people were in
that block?
A. In that block were sometimes no
people, and sometimes a thousand.
Q. Sometimes
a thousand.
A. Yes.
Q. So there's as
many as a thousand in each of those blocks at the
bottom there; is that right?
A. No, that is not
right, because sometimes ---
Q. What do you
mean, then?
A. Sometimes half the blocks were
empty, sometimes eighty per cent of the blocks were
empty it was a quarantine part of the camp.
Q.
Yeah, but they held as many as a thousand in each of
those blocks?
A. If necessary they could put as
many as a thousand people in each of those blocks.
They held as many as three hundred, but they managed
to press in.
Q. What we are talking about is
block BIIA. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. And
there's fifteen blocks in there.
A. That's
right.
Q. All right. So there could be as many
as fifteen thousand people.
A. There were never
there fifteen thousand people.
Q. In that part
of the camp.
A. No. In quarantine camp not, but
in similar camp, indeed, there were sometimes twenty
thousand.
Q. Let's get the figures understood.
So that in all the other blocks in other camps, the
same number of people could be kept.
A. Not at
all. This doesn't work that way. I am show you how it
works if you allow me.
Q. All I asked you was,
were the blocks capable of holding that many people?
A. They were capable, but between capability of
holding people and actually holding people there is a
difference. The people. Were the people there or not?
Q. I know. And you were in the quarantine camp,
and unless you were reporting to the Chief
Blockschreiber, or the Chief Scribe of the camp ---
A. That's right.
Q. --- you had to be in
quarantine Block A.
A. According to regulations;
but it doesn't mean that I kept the regulations, you
see.
Q. No. You were clever enough to avoid the
regulations, right?
A. I took the risk to avoid
the regulations, if you don't mind, as part of my
fighting duties.
Q. Fighting duries, yes. So
you still maintain 150,000 people from France who were
Jews ....
A. Yes.
Q. Were gassed between
April '42 and April '44.
A. Yes.
Q. You
maintain ---
A. It is written there.
Q.
It is written there, I know.
A. I have counted
them.
Q. And I want to know if that's true.
A. Right.
Q. And you say that is true.
A. Absolutely so, otherwise I wouldn't have
written it.
Q. And it's a careful estimate,
isn't it?
A. Well, what else can it be? Should
I have asked ---
Q. Don't answer my question
with a question. Please answer my question with an
answer.
A. Yes. A careful estimate, because
that is all I could do. A careful estimate. I could
not ask the camp commander for more exact figures. He
had them.
Q. Thank you for your reason for your
answer. I suggest to you that this figure is twice the
number of people that boarded from France who were
Jews for the entire War. What do you say to that?
A. Where from do you have the figure, from the
Nazi newspapers?
Q. No. I have the figure -- do
you want an answer to the question? Because that is
what you asked me. I put it to you, therefore, from
Serge Klarsfeld, a noted Nazi-hunter from France who
wrote the book, Le Memorial de la Deportation de
Juivre en France -- do you deny the content of this
book?
A. I have not read that book, but I can
tell you that I was in Notre Dame -- excuse me, I am
trying to explain to you that question.
Q. But
I didn't ask you about Notre Dame. I asked you whether
you disputed the truth of that book.
A. I would
like to inform you about different sources.
THE
COURT: Doctor, Doctor. Mr Christie, let him answer the
question. You put it. Let him answer it.
THE
WITNESS: I would like to tell you that in 1967 I was
invited by the French Government to take part in the
opening of memorial for those who were deported from
France and died a martyr's death in Auschwitz and I
was taken to Notre Dame in the memorial, and in gold
letters there was written, "In memory of 200,000
French victims of gas chambers in Auschwitz", or
deportees, or something to that effect. I cannot
reproduce the words, but roughly to that effect.
Q. MR CHRISTIE: Where was this?
A. In the
memorial to the martyrs of deportation, on the island
in Paris. So you can see that at that time the French
Government had an opinion that 200,000 were deported.
Now, the French Government ---
Q. Gassed or
deported?
A. Deported.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. And never came back. There is an inscription of
a ten-year-old boy whose parents were deported, and
this inscription says, "One day they went away and
never came back". So this was for the 200,000 who were
deported and never came back.
Now, we know, of
course, where they were deported. The Germans kept ---
MR CHRISTIE: Your Honour, I object to the witness
going beyond the scope of the question. I'd like to
ask some other questions.
THE COURT: Ask the
next question.
MR CHRISTIE: Thank you.
Q. You gave an answer to my learned friend that the
words in this book, "Did Six Million Really Die?" was
a cynical lie, on more than one occasion, I recall; is
that right?
A. May I elaborate this on the
ground ---
Q. I just want to know if you said
that.
A. Yes. I have a document on that. I have
left it .
Q. I just asked you whether you said
it.
A. Yes, sir. It is a cynical lie.
Q.
Okay.
A. It is cynical to say ---
Q. You
were read the portion I am about to read to you:
"Although several millions were supposed to have
died at Auschwitz alone, Reitlinger has to admit that
only 363,000 inmates were registered at the camp for
the whole of the period between January 1940 and
February 1945 " (The S.S. Alibi of a Nation, p. 268
ff), "and ...."
A. What is the figure?
Q. "....363,000 inmates were registered at the camp
for the whole of the period between January 1940 and
February 1945 " (The S.S. Alibi of a Nation, p. 268
ff), "and ...."
A. Excuse me. You said
registered. Did I hear right?
Q. That's what
the words were.
A. Registered. Good. Thank you.
Q. Okay. Now, do you deny that that's what it says
in the book, "The S.S. Alibi of a Nation", at page
268?
A. I didn't read the book.
Q. All
right. So you don't deny that?
A. I didn't read
the book. I didn't come to discuss this literature. I
came here at the request of the Court to say what I
saw.
Q. I asked you a question and I want an
answer.
A. What answer do you want me about the
book?
Q. I want to know why you said that that
was a cynical lie if you had never read the book.
A. The six millions why it was a cynical lie?
Q. No. The question was why that was a cynical lie
when you've never read the book.
A. What was a
cynical lie?
Q. You said this part, which I've
read to you, was a cynical lie. Now I'm going to
analyze it piece by piece and I am going to ask you
specifically if every sentence is true or false, or if
you know.
A. As far as I know ---
Q.
Then I am going to ask you why you said it was a
cynical lie.
A. That's right.
Q. All
right. Now, I will proceed to do that with the first
sentence. Will you permit me?
A. I would like
to make a certain signification. I said the word
cynical ---
Q. Well, I want a specific answer,
for a certain specific question, and I'll ask it right
now.
A. When did I say it was a cynical lie?
Remind me, please.
Q. I just put it to you that
you did. I am not going to give you the hour, the
second, the minute or even the day, but I put it to
you that you did, and I am going to ask you whether it
was, in fact, a lie.
A. Yes. All right. Go
ahead.
Q. That sentence, then, you cannot say
it was a lie?
A. Which sentence?
Q. The
sentence I just read to you:
"Although several
millions were supposed to have died at Auschwitz alone,
Reitlinger has to admit that only 363,000 inmates were
registered at the camp for the whole of the period
between January 1940 and February 1945 " (The S.S.
Alibi of a Nation, p. 268 ff)..."
I put it to
you that that sentence is not a lie.
A. No. I
said the same thing here.
Q. Thank you. The
next sentence -- well, it isn't another sentence; it
is carrying on from a comma:
".... and by no
means all of them were Jews."
That's true,
isn't it, for registered inmates?
A. Absolutely.
Q. All right:
"It is frequently claimed
that many prisoners were never registered...."
That's true, too, isn't it, sir?
A. If they
went into the gas chamber, they were not registered.
Q. I am not interested in your opinion as to
whether they were gassed or not. I am interested in
whether it was true that it was frequently claimed
that many inmates were never registered. It was true,
wasn't it?
A. If it was claimed -- I have never
heard it claimed. Show me the claim.
Q. Well, I
put it to you that you say that ten per cent were
registered and the rest were gassed.
A. I
claimed that twenty-five per cent were registered and
the rest were gassed.
Q. The unregistered,
according to you, were gassed?
A. That's right.
Q. So it is true to say:
"It is frequently
claimed that many prisoners were never registered"?
A. Well, if you understand it that those who were
brought into the cattle trucks were already prisoners,
and as prisoners and not free people, straight into
the gas chamber, then it is true that the people were
not registered and were killed. That is only
unregistered prisoners.
Q. "It is frequently
claimed that many prisoners were never registered...."
That's true?
A. Many prisoners who did not
come into the camp but from the cattle trucks in which
they were imprisoned were taken straight to the gas
chambers. Right, they were not registered.
Q.
It is, therefore, frequently claimed that many
prisoners were never registered; isn't that true?
A. With the specifications I just now gave you,
yes.
Q. Well, that statement is true, even
without the specifications you just now gave me, isn't
it?
A. Without the specifications, the
statement is a nonsense.
Q. Why is the
statement nonsense without your specifications when it
says:
"It is frequently claimed that many
prisoners were never registered...."
Why does
that need your specifications to make sense?
A.
Because I consider a prisoner in Auschwitz, or
Birkenau, in the Auschwitz complex, every prisoner was
registered. On the other hand, if I define the word "prisoner"
not only those who were registered but those who were
brought in cattle trucks as prisoners, and without
registration were gassed ....
Q. You call them
prisoners ---
A. Then you can widen the word of
"prisoner". You are playing on a word. What is a
prisoner?
Q. You are the one who is playing
with words, I suggest, because a prisoner is a
prisoner is a prisoner, and if he comes on a cattle
truck or a train, he is still a prisoner. Right?
A. But it doesn't mean that he is or not
registered. That's the question. And if he is
unregistered, he died as an unregistered prisoner and
was never a prisoner in Auschwitz.
Q. Let me
put it to you this way, that people who arrive in
trains or cattle trucks or any other way were
prisoners, and it is claimed that many of them were
never registered. Isn't that true?
A. In that
sense, yes.
Q. All right. This article does not
define prisoners as only those who were registered,
does it?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. This
article does not define prisoners as only those who
were registered, does it?
A. But in my mind I
only regarded those who were registered.
Q. All
right. That is only in your mind.
A. Yes.
Q. Then it says:
".... but no one has
offered any proof of this."
Right? That's what
the article says. I am asking you, isn't that what it
says?
A. No one has offered any proof of that?
Q. Yes.
A. This is ridiculous.
Q.
Well, sir, you tell us that you have proof that many
were never registered. Right? They disappeared up in
smoke. Right?
A. It is not only I who
registered it. The proof is that they went there and
never came back.
Q. You've told us all about
the 1,765,000 that went to the crematoria and never
came back and they all, of course, were not
registered. Right?
A. Of course not, except
those prisoners who registered, walked in the camp ---
Q. And died.
A. Lost their -- either died
or lost their power for slave work and were subjected
to so-called selections and were selected as
unsuitable of work and led in front of my eyes to the
crematoria. So there were registered prisoners gassed
in the crematoria, and unregistered prisoners gassed
in the crematoria.
Q. Yeah.
A. So we are
in agreement.
Q. What I am suggesting to you is
that the article says that there is a claim that many
prisoners were never registered and you agreed with
that, and it said that no one has offered any proof of
this, and I put it to you that unless you were the
person who kept the camp register ....
A. Yes.
Q. .... you, yourself, cannot say who was
registered and who was not.
A. Of course.
Q. That is true.
A. No, that is not true.
That is false.
Q. Well, sir, how can you tell
us how you know who was registered and who was not
when you were a block scribe in block what?
A.
In Block 15.
Q. Block 15 in quarantine camp A.
A. Yes.
Q. How can you tell us how you know
what records were kept by the whole camp, commandant
and everybody else?
A. Because it was a rule in
Auschwitz ---
Q. Whose rule?
A. The rule
of the administration which run Auschwitz. The rule
was the murderers who was running this complex, and
the rule -- I am answering your question.
MR
GRIFFITHS: Let him answer the question, please.
THE COURT: Yes, Mr Christie, let him answer the
question.
MR CHRISTIE: Did you see their books?
A. I have permission to answer the question.
Q. Do you know what the question is?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. The question is were
there unregistered prisoners in the concentration camp
Auschwitz-Birkenau.
Q. Yes.
A. There
were no unregistered prisoners in that complex for
this reason. No alive ---
Q. None alive.
A. And for the following reason I can say that
this is for sure so:
Any prisoner in
concentration camp Auschwitz-Birkenau had a number not
only tattooed on his body, but also sewn on his
clothes.
Q. Well, I'd like to stop you there
and ---
A. You are interrupting me when I am
explaining you the question.
MR GRIFFITHS: He
is answering the question.
THE COURT: I have it,
gentlemen. You can ask him after he has finished
talking, and not until.
Go ahead.
MR
CHRISTIE: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: It was a rule
in Auschwitz that who didn't have his number on his
clothes committed a criminal offence which was
punished by capital punishment; he was killed.
Consequently, I can quite assure you that no prisoner
could be in Auschwitz-Birkenau unregistered because if
he would have been unregistered, then the roll calls
which took place twice a day in order to check if
somebody escaped or not would not have been possible.
When somebody escaped from Auschwitz it took the
administration no more than two minutes or five
minutes to find out who is missing from which block
and what is his number, what is his birthplace and
where from he comes. In other words, to move around in
a prisoner garb unregistered in Auschwitz-Birkenau,
this is approximately such a fantasy like that you
jump on the moon. Not possible. There was no
unregistered prisoner in Auschwitz-Birkenau in the
time I have been there during the two years.
Q.
So everybody was registered, is that right?
A.
Absolutely so. Everybody who was alive was registered.
Only those who died without registration were not
registered.
Q. And of those there is no proof.
A. There is enough proof.
Q. What is the
proof of those?
A. Should I bring you six
million bodies here in front of you that you should
accept the proof?
Q. Well, I'd be satisfied
with an autopsy report of even one.
A. You
would?
Q. Yeah. Have you got that?
THE
COURT: One more laugh and the one who laughs leaves
and doesn't come back. Not a sound.
MR
CHRISTIE: I am not asking for six million bodies. I am
not asking if there are six million bodies in
Auschwitz. I am not asking for anything like that. If
you have the evidence of one single body of a person
who is gassed, who was never registered, I'd like you
to produce it.
A. As a rule, you should know it,
as a counsel, that ---
Q. What I should know as
a counsel ---
A. I am explaining to you ---
THE COURT: Just a moment. Mr Christie, you will
please desist from interrupting the answer. I will be
the arbiter as to whether or not the answer is too
long and is unresponsive. You will resist it with all
of your ability to interrupt the answer of the witness.
MR CHRISTIE: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Now,
witness, proceed.
THE WITNESS: As a rule you,
acquainted with the criminal law, must know that it is
not the habit of the murderer to provide witnesses
with post-mortem reports of his victims. Consequently
the fact that I have been a witness to the murder
doesn't give me still the possibility to go to the
murderer and ask for the post-mortem of his victims.
Your request, therefore, is nonsensical.
Q.
MR CHRISTIE: Am I to take it, then, that you are the
proof? Is that it?
A. No, I am not the proof. I
am only one of those who recorded it for the first
time when it was a big secret in 1944, and after that
it was investigated when this report came to the
British, American and Canadian Government and was
found to be a truthful and reliable information which
has been checked not only with discussion of thousands
and thousands of survivors, but also from reports
which reached the Allied Intelligence that many trains
from Paris, from Belgium from Selonica, from Prague,
from Yugoslavia, from Poland moved with Jews to an
unknown destination.
The first time that the
destination became known, as far as Auschwitz is
concerned, was accorded in this report, but long time
before this report reached the Allied Government, it
was known that some of the transport went to Treblinka,
Chelmno, Belzec and Sobibor. So this was known to the
Allied in 1944. What was new in this report was that
apart from the extermination camps and gas chambers in
Chelmno, Belzec,Treblinka, Sobibor, the Nazis, in
their cunning, managed to hide that the biggest centre
of maximum extermination is in Auschwitz. That was
only news in this report.
Q. So I take it, then,
that you have just provided us with the proof that
there is ---
A. I have provided the Allied, not
you, but the Allied Government, with the information
where it is and where it can be checked out. And as
far as I know, none from the Allied Government who
were responsible for th handling of the report still
accused me of having told them something which is not
true. Such an accusation I have heard only from the
neo-Nazi Press with the shamelessness of Butz and
Faurisson, and from the piece which has been shown to
me by the representative of Crown as being produced by
your defendant.
Q. So as to the proof that many
prisoners were never registered, you have provided
that to us. That's all there is that you know of. Is
that right?
A. I am confirming a
generally-known fact.
Q. That's the words that
began the Refugee Board Report, and I will quote it to
you ---
A. Yes.
Q. "It is a fact beyond
denial". Those were the opening words, wasn't it?
A. Excuse me please?
Q. The first words of
the report?
A. Page ....
Q. Well, it
starts at the beginning, the first page.
A. Yes.
Q. It says, "It is a fact beyond denial". Those
are the first words, aren't they?
A. Those are
the first words, but why don't you read -- sorry.
Q. I will read the whole thing. I want to ask you
if those were the first words.
A. Those are the
first words, and as far as I know, they were penned by
the President of the United States.
Q. They
weren't penned by you, then?
A. No, because
this is an introduction to the report. This is an
introduction to the report, and the report starts here.
Q. Thank you very much. It is an introduction.
Thank you.
A. Yes. Not penned by myself; penned
in Washington.
Q. Yes. I've heard that twice
now, thank you. Now, is this the case that you have
provided us with the proof of the existence of all
these unregistered people by your evidence here?
A. I have ---
THE COURT: Excuse me.
MR GRIFFITHS: I think that ultimately that is going to
be a matter both for Your Honour and for the jury,
Your Honour, and not a question for this witness to
ask. His credibility will be assessed by the jury and
they will decide whether it is proof or not.
THE COURT: What do you say to that, Mr Christie?
MR CHRISTIE: Well, he's made a statement that no
one has provided any proof of this. He says that
statement is a lie and I asked him whether he claims
he is the one that offered us the proof. That's all.
THE COURT: I agree with the Crown. If you want to
rephrase it in such a way that it is acceptable to me,
you may, but in that form it is not. You may not ask
it.
Q. MR CHRISTIE: It says then:
"Even
if there were as many unregistered as there were
registered, it would mean only a total of 750,000
prisoners".
Now, that statement is true, isn't
it?
A. Where are you reading that?
Q. I
am reading where I read before.
A. Well, I
can't see where you are reading.
Q. I finished
off by reading the last sentence before that which
was:
"It was frequently claimed that many
prisoners were never registered, but no one has
offered any proof of this."
The next sentence
reads:
"Even if there were as many unregistered
as there were registered, it would mean only a total
of 750,000 ...."
I put it to you that that
statement is true.
A. I don't know what you are
reading from, from what context you are tearing it out
of, and I will appreciate it if you show me the
document from which you are reading.
Q. I'm
sorry, I thought you had read the document and given
your opinion on it, but I'll get it. Exhibit 1, page
17. It's the same part, I suggest to you, that you
gave a blanket answer for to my learned friend. You
said it was a cynical lie.
A. Yes. Now I
remember. I said it is a cynical lie what was written
in this, what do you call it, printed paper.
THE COURT: You can call it Exhibit 1.
THE
WITNESS: Exhibit 1.
Q. MR CHRISTIE: Now, I am
referring to a specific sentence in that specific
paragraph where it says:
"Even if there were as
many unregistered as there were registered, it would
mean only a total of 750,000 prisoners".
A.
Page and line, please.
Q. 17 is the page. The
line doesn't have a number, but it's the paragraph
that ---
A. This is the page where Mr Goering
is photographed, if I am right?
Q. Well, it
says "17" on the bottom righthand. You got it?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you, Doctor. You read the
sentence: "Even if ...." Now, do you want to start
again?
A. Yes, please. Which sentence?
Q. We will deal with the paragraph which you were read
by the Crown, which is the bottom paragraph on the
lefthand column of the page beginning with the words:
"Although several millions were supposed to have
died at Auschwitz alone ...."
A. That's right.
I found it.
Q. ".... Reitlinger has to admit
that only 363,000 inmates were registered at the camp
for the whole of the period between January 1940 and
February 1945 (The S.S. Alibi of a Nation, p. 268 ff)
...."
A. Right.
Q. That statement I
gather you don't dispute because you say -- or you
don't know about that book. Right?
A. I don't
know about that book, but I know about the fact.
Q. Well, it's true, isn't it, that's how many were
registered?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. You
say that all of the 1,765,000 were unregistered. Right?
A. Excuse me, this is not what is written here.
Q. No. I am asking ---
A. Here is written
the following -- you are trying to mislead me.
Q. No, I am not trying to mislead.
A. And I
will try to tell you what I read here.
Q. I've
read it once, sir. I am asking you another question a
little off that sentence. Don't feel I am trying to
mislead you. I want to understand you.
A. Well,
with your permission I can explain what I understand.
Q. Fine.
A. Here is written:
"It is
frequently claimed that many prisoners were never
registered, but no one has offered any proof of this."
p. 1598
Q. Yes.
A. This word, "No
one has offered any proof of this", this doesn't come
from Reitlinger. This comes from the Nazi provocation.
Q. Okay. That comes from this book which you call
a Nazi provocation.
A. That's right.
Q.
It's a statement of opinion, right?
A. If I
would consider ---
Q. You don't ---
A.
--- the opinion of somebody who tells me that the moon
is out of cheese not a provocation, but a fact or
information, I wouldn't be with it.
Q. No. It
is a very clever turn of phrase, Doctor, but I want to
ask you if that isn't an opinion with which you
disagree.
A. It is against common sense, this
second half of the sentence.
Q. All right.
A. Because many scholars, on many universities,
and many criminal organizations, I mean many
organizations who persecuted criminals, knew perfectly
well that many have offered the proof of this. And
here is written, "No one has offered any proof of this",
and you want me to subscribe to it. In other words ---
Q. No. Just please understand. I am not asking you
to subscribe to it or agree with it, but I am asking
you to confirm that it is a statement of opinion.
A. It is a statement against common sense. This is
not a question of opinion.
Q. Yes. You agree
---
A. If I will qualify my statement, if you
will tell me that this room is ten or twenty yards
length, this is a question of opinion, I might say ten,
you might say twenty; but if you tell me that this
room is long twenty miles, this is not opinion; this
is nonsense.
Q. Okay. You tell me that you saw
1,765,000 people go into a gas chamber and never come
out. You don't produce a body. You don't produce any
figures, statistics or registration numbers. You give
me the information off trains that you see on occasion
and you tell me that it is as ridiculous as anything
you can imagine. Right?
A. No, not at all. I
say something different.
Q. All right.
A. What I am offering is, in the report which went to
the Allied Government, is a statistic, day by day, of
what arrived to Auschwitz, from where, to the best of
my knowledge and ability.
Q. I know. We've gone
into that, sir.
A. So this is a testimonial of
an eye witness, and as you could see, the testimonial
was sufficiently good to such a way that yes, when you
told me that on 7 March, 1943, there came no transport
into Auschwitz, I could show you, in your own document,
the other side which you didn't want to show us was
written that the transport arrived on 8th March. And
you didn't give me even the opportunity to explain to
you that it was not necessary lapse of memory, but
that if prisoners came on the night of 7 March to the
camp, it is perfectly logical that in the book
which you showed me they will be recorded on in the
morning as March 8th. Still you came here ---
Q. I suggest to you that it was the 7th of September
we were talking about yesterday, not the 7th of March
or the 8th.
A. 7th of September, that's right.
Q. You made a mistake, right?
A. Thank you.
Thank you for reminding me.
Q. Sure. Now, what
I have suggested to you is that it is true that it is
frequently claimed that many prisoners were never
registered. In fact, you make that claim yourself as
do many others.
A. That many prisoners were
never registered, provided with the proviso because
they were gassed on arrival.
Q. You want to add
that. All right.
A. That's right.
Q. And
therefore you say that it is nonsense to say that no
one has offered any proof of this. Right?
A.
That no one has offered any proof of it, this is
nonsense.
Q. Yeah. That's nonsense because
you've offered us your knowledge of their arrival and
your evidence about their being gassed.
A. And
many thousand other survivors.
Q. Well, we
don't know about the many thousand others.
A. I
---
THE COURT: Just a moment. What's your next
question?
Q. MR CHRISTIE: I am trying to get to
the sentence I tried to get to before.
"Even if
there were as many unregistered as there were
registered, it would mean only a total of 750,000
prisoners hardly enough for the elimination of 3 or 4
million."
Now, that sentence is true, right?
A. That sentence I don't even understand. I think
this is a non sequitur. If you take the sentences,
they are nonsense. It is grammatically right. It is
spelled out, I would say, properly, but the sense is
completely missing.
Q. Because you don't accept
the proposition that there were only twice as many
unregistered as registered; is that right?
A.
No. Here is something completely different written.
Even if there were as many unregistered as there were
registered, it would mean only a total of 750,000
prisoners.
Q. Well, we already understood from
you that you didn't know how many were registered, do
you? Do you know how many were registered?
A.
Of course I know how many were registered.
Q.
How many?
A. And as you say in your statement
here, that Reitlinger said that registered prisoners
were 363,000.
Q. What do you say?
A. And
in my book I say the following I will read you what I
said. I will read you the whole paragraph so that
there is no mistake about what I said.
Q. Well,
I don't think you are trying to mislead us, sir, on
your book. Just tell us how many were registered.
A. On page 273 I say that apart from those who
were killed without registration, registered prisoners
were 350,000.
Q. Okay.
A. And Reitlinger
says 363,000.
Q. That's right.
A. Now,
he is a particularly sorrowful historian. I always
said my figures were exact to ten per cent, and that
difference between the two figures I mentioned before
is only about two or three per cent.
Q. So
twice the unregistered inmates would be 750,000, right?
A. That is right. So what you are saying then is
twice the number of registered would mean that fifty
per cent of the people who came in the cattle trucks
to Auschwitz would go to the camp and only fifty per
cent would go, other fifty per cent ---
Q. Let
the jury decide what it means. I am asking you to
decide upon this statement, one at a time.
A.
Right.
Q. So we agree that if you double the
number of registered inmates, you get 750,000.
A. That's right. Nice mathematical achievement.
Q. And that would certainly not be three or four
million.
A. No.
Q. That's all I ask.
A. By mathematics, no. Depending by which factor
you multiply now.
Q. And you multiply by your
factor.
A. And you choose factor two.
Q.
I did not make the choice. The author did.
A.
Who is the author?
Q. It says, "Richard Harwood".
Now, just answer my questions. Don't ask me who the
author is.
A. Richard Harwood ---
THE
COURT: Next question.
Q. MR CHRISTIE: "Moreover,
large numbers of the camp population were released or
transported elsewhere during the war, ...."
Now,
I'd like to ask you whether anybody, to your knowledge,
ever left Auschwitz-Birkenau during the War for any
other camp.
A. Yes, I can answer that question.
For that I don't have exact figures, but observations
I do have.
After the uprising of the Warsaw
Ghetto, this means it must have been in May June -- no,
it was only in July, August, 1943, long after the
uprising, they took, marched out from Auschwitz 1,500
prisoners to eliminate the bodies lined up under the
rubble in the Warsaw Ghetto. And I was present when
they took their prisoners from Auschwitz Concentration
Camp to the Warsaw Ghetto. So this is an example that
some prisoners actually, as you say, were taken out
from Auschwitz. From those thousand five hundred, some
of them are alive, two of them are in Toronto.
Q. So those are the only ones who ever left
Auschwitz-Birkenau.
A. No. This is an example.
Q. And do you know how many exactly left
Auschwitz-Birkenau for other camps?
A. From the
registered prisoners ---
Q. Well, from any
prisoners, registered or unregistered.
A. Now,
we have already said that we speak about registered
and unregistered prisoners. Now I would like to answer
your question. From the unregistered prisoners none
left Auschwitz-Birkenau because missing the
registration meant that they went to the gas chamber.
As far as the registered prisoners is concerned,
there was frequent movement, and this means that where
the number of transports, one went to Warsaw and
another transport went as far, I remember, to one of
those satellite camps in the coalmines around
Auschwitz, and then was a small transport of people
who were specialist in printing and were taken to a
printing enterprise somewhere near Berlin where they
were falsifying British bank notes.
Now, these
are approximately what I know about it, but because
they didn't go through the ramp, and they didn't go by
Section IIA, I couldn't have an exact information of
the transfer of registered prisoners from the complex
of Auschwitz or Birkenau and know about it only from
hearsay.
Q. So that you are saying nobody who
was unregistered ever left Birkenau. Is that it?
A. Who arrived at Birkenau and didn't get a
registration died.
Q. So nobody who went to
Auschwitz-Birkenau would leave without a number.
A. Without being registered as a number.
Q.
Mm-hmmm.
A. But it didn't necessarily mean that
he was tattooed. There was a certain disorder as far
as tatooing is concerned. You see, the Nazis are not
that efficient as you think.
Q. Well, is it
your evidence that no one would leave Birkenau who was
unregistered?
A. No one would leave Birkenau
alive if he was brought in as a prisoner and was not
registered. He would never leave Birkenau alive. He
wouldn't be alive for more than twenty-four hours.
Q. Mm-hmmm. So that all these transports of
unregistered people would have to be executed within
twenty-four hours.
A. They usually were
executed within six hours, but sometimes the gas
chambers were filled and they had to wait their turn
in the small forest behind the crematoria, or
sometimes were milling around for twelve, fourteen,
sixteen hours in between the crematoria. So you could
see them and they had to wait their turn to be gassed,
and in order to keep them quiet, they sent them the
gypsy music. So the music was playing while they were
waiting for being gassed, so that it created the
impression that things are normal because there is the
music.
Q. And so that is how they could gas two
thousand a day in Krema II, and two thousand a day in
Krema III, and one thousand in Krema IV, and one
thousand in Krema V; right?
A. Not necessarily.
That was only the plan, Mr Counsel. The fact was that
they didn't have such an experience in building those
mass crematoria. This was something quite new in
technology, and from those four crematoria a number of
them suffered constantly some sort of breakdown. It
was very rare that the four crematoria could work
simultaneously. At least one broke down. If you could
get full capacity in one year you could get more than
1,800,000, and it took two, three years. So there were
breakdowns in the crematoria.
Q. All right.
Remember you were telling us earlier that you came and
unloaded the trains, and then you were marched away
after unloading them and cleaning them?
THE
COURT: We will hear about that at 2:15.
Members
of the jury, you may retire.
--- The jury
retires. 1:00 p.m.
--- The witness stands down.
--- Luncheon adjournment.
------------------------------
This is part 5 of the Testimony of Dr Rudolf Vrba, transcript of the 1985 Ernst Zündel trial in Toronto.
part 4
part
6
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