Q. Dr Vrba, you were explaining the camp enclosure,
Birkenau, when you were there.
A. Yes.
Q. All right? Carry on. Now ....
A. This means this was Birkenau I. Here are women
and here were men.
Q. We are looking at the left side of the drawing
and on the bottom --
A. On this side of the drawing were women and here
were men. And to make the geography clear, south on
this map is in this direction, and this I know because
on clear days from this place where I lived -- I lived
here in this place, but when I go as far as this and
could look through the wires, I could see mountains,
and I knew that those are the Bezkydy. These were
Slovak mountains.
Q. Slovak mountains. And these were ---
A. In the south.
Q. Now, I put to you another one, and this is
three-dimensional, tilted; another one that we have
seen before as a flat plan.
A. Yes. So this would be the flat plan similar to
that one which I drew after my escape, and this means
that Birkenau I was two -- this was "A" and
this was "B". In "A" were women;
in "B" were men. This complex was Birkenau
II, and it was not built up at that time.
Q. When you first move in.
A. In January 1943. And this complex did not exist
whatsoever in January 1943.
Q. Now, where were you living in January of 1943?
A. I was living in this building here. And this
building was called Block No. 16.
Q. And where were you working after January '43?
A. After January '43 I was working back in Kanada. This means by daytime or by
nighttime I was transported to the ramp, and by
daytime to the Kanada storehouse in Auschwitz I.
Q. All right.
A. I was marched there. In other words, I was only
changing my barrack from Auschwitz I into a barrack in
Birkenau. That was a change on January 15th. And here
I stayed until January 8th.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. June 8th, 1943.
Q. All right. During that next six months ....
A. Yes.
Q. ....can you tell us whether you saw any of the
truckloads or lorries of people coming from the
direction of the train ramp into Birkenau that you
described for us yesterday?
A. Certainly.
Q. Can you tell us where they went?
A. Because when I finished my work, if I may call
it that way, when this Kommando finish the work on the
ramp, the Kommando went home. Now, when I was home and
somebody else was on the ramp, when I was in the day
Kommando, then I would see that those trucks with
those who were not marched into the camp, the healthy
men and the healthy women went, so to say, in front of
my nose by this main entrance, by this road, into this
region, which was surrounded by barbed wire,
electrified barbed wire, and unloaded in this yard. So
that it was my privilege and right of the prisoners
that when they are not working, they can walk. This is
the main road.
Furthermore, here, this is Block 27, and next to
the Block 27, here, it was a wooden structure.
Q. Is it shown on this plan?
A. It is not shown on this map because it was only
made fro wood, and this was called Leichenkeller,
which means mortuary. And this was a mortuary for
prisoners who died by daytime in the prison compound,
and in this mortuary there was a very close check on
the numbers of the prisoners so that one knows who
died, who is not dead. So considerable administration
was being kept.
Q. Were you ever in that mortuary?
A. I was frequently in the mortuary, because
Registrar in the mortuary was Fred Wetzler, with whom
I escaped later who was from the same town I was, who
I knew from home, and with whom I escaped from
Auschwitz. This means if I may have this main picture,
if I was not working, I used every occasion to go to
the mortuary, because there was the company of Wetzler,
who was my closest friend.
Secondly, we conspire from the very start with
Wetzler the conspiracy of escape. Wetzler by that time
lost three brothers in the Sonderkommando. And it gave
me safety, because by staying in the mortuary, this
Wetzler, it usually contained two hundred, three
hundred, four hundred bodies. The S.S. didn't like the
stench which accumulated there, so we had a peaceful
teatime in that place, and if I may have the picture,
also naturally from this place I could see perfectly
what was happening on this road and what's happening
here, from the crematoria.
Q. You described barbed wire. Was there any kind of
fence around those buildings that are crematoria that
would prevent you from seeing what was happening there?
A. Not at the start. At the start I could see
perfectly well from here, in January 1943, February
1943, perfectly well what is happening here. The
distance is not more than fifty, sixty yards. I mean,
the distance apart from the barbed wires would be like
over this room, quite close. So that I could see
perfectly well what was happening in this area.
MR GRIFFITHS: Your Honour, is this a convenient
time for the morning recess?
THE COURT: Yes. Twenty minutes.
--- The jury retires. 11:27 a.m.
--- Short adjournment.
-------------
Upon resuming.
MR CHRISTIE: Your Honour, I just want to point out
what I thought might have been a misunderstanding in
my application this morning.
My friend said he hasn't heard an application such
as I was making. I thought I had mentioned the word
"commission", and I intended it to be such
an application, and I wanted to point out that I
thought perhaps, although at the time I was speaking to a
point of law that didn't seem to be of well-known
repute, I think I am right in saying that 637
indicates that: "A party to a proceeding to which
this Act applies may apply for an order appointing a
commissioner to take the evidence of a witness who (a)
is, by reason of ....", and then: " (ii)
some other good and sufficient cause, not likely to be
able to attend at the time the trial is held, or (b)
is out of Canada.
I noted too that in the case of R. v. Bulleyment
(1979) 46 C.C.C. (2nd), 429, the Court of Appeal of
Ontario has held that such an application may be made
during the trial. However, the application would only
be granted -- or however, in deciding whether or not
to grant the application, the trial judge is entitled
to decide such factors as to whether the trial is
disrupted by the taking of evidence and the possible
prejudice to the opposite party resulting therefrom,
as well as the consequences that the jury will not
have the advantage of observing the demeanour of the
witness.
In view of the fact that it didn't seem clear that
my friend acceeded to the factor, the position, that
there was such a right, I simply want to re-affirm
that I was intending my application to be regarded as one under s. 637 (a) (ii), and although I am not
asking Your Honour to rule on this at this time, I
would like Your Honour to consider my application in
light of these remarks and in that section for
consideration at a later point.
I will be renewing it with the same factual reasons
as I gave before. And I might point out that I also
indicated at the beginning of the case that I was
going to make an application at the end of the Crown's
evidence that the witness, Fried, who was called at
the preliminary hearing and gave evidence which I
would want for my defence, I would be seeking his
examination under commission as well.
Now, he is in New York City, and I was prepared to
make that application at the end of the Crown's case
to convenience the Court, but I put the Crown on
notice that I would be seeking that order.
So I am simply re-affirming what I said previously,
identifying the section number and indicating that I
would be, if possible, raising the issue with you
again, perhaps tomorrow or at a later stage,
respecting Dr Udo Walehdy [Walendy].
Thank you very much, Your Honour.
THE COURT: I think, Mr Christie, one of the reasons
that I dismissed your application without prejudice --
in effect you are making it again-- was because at the
present time, on what you've told me concerning Mr
Walendy, the wording of s. 637 is incompatible with
his physical presence in this country and being
available, at least at this time, to testify.
In so far as the other matter is concerned
regarding the witness in New York City, I understand
you are not making an application now. You are merely
advising that you may very well be making such an
application at the appropriate time.
MR CHRISTIE: Yes. Because I have asked my friend to
produce the witness, and so far he has declined; but I
am simply indicating that if he does not produce the
witness by the end of his case, that is what my
application will be.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you. Is there anything
further from either side.
MR GRIFFITHS: No, Your Honour. I just indicate that
I will not be producing the witness by the end of the
case and I will be confirming that. That will be the
argument I expect my friend to make, but I will not be producing that witness from New York
City, and I was not aware that s. 637 was being used
for Udo Walendy, and I am obliged to my friend for
pointing that out.
THE COURT: Thank you, gentlemen.
Bring in the jury, please.
------------
--- The jury returns. 12:05 p.m.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr Griffiths.
MR GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Dr Vrba, prior to the morning recess you were
telling us that you had a clear view from the mortuary
where your friend worked of the area of the Krematoria
II and III, or what are marked on the plan.
Can you tell us what you saw when trucks would come
to that area?
A. May I have the map again?
THE COURT: I think, before we go any further, what
we are all looking at on the screen -- that's Exhibit
16, I believe, isn't it?
THE REGISTRAR: It hasn't been introduced, Your
Honour.
MR GRIFFITHS: Perhaps, before we go further, that
can be introduced. It's been marked by Dr Vrba
indicating that Block 27, where his friend was living
and where the mortuary is, and it is
a plan said to be of Birkenau.
THE COURT: Please mark it now, otherwise things
could become somewhat confused.
MR GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
---EXHIBIT NO. 16: Transparency of Birkenau
complex, BI, BII, BIII.
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: Q. So Dr Vrba, Exhibit 16 I am
showing now on the screen, can you tell us what you
saw?
A. I came from the night shift where several
transports during the night arrived, but I was
exchanged on the night shift approximately at five
o'clock in the morning and broke into my barracks for
sleep. Instead of sleeping, I get out from the barrack
and walk over to Block 27 to the mortuary to talk to
my friend, Wetzler. This mortuary had a window on this
side.
Q. Indicating on the side closest to the crematoria?
A. On the side closest to the crematoria. So that
when I, before the window, in front of the window was
a table, and on the table coffee was served, or tea.
The dead were around this table. There was such a
corner with paper and coffee and a window. While I was
drinking my coffee I could see that the people from
the night which I had seen arrive, most of them were
not seen but there were several hundred, first on this
yard which was enclosed with electric fences, and with
tower guards, and they went into this building which
is known to us as Krematorium No. II. This Krematorium No. II had,
apart from buildings, long bunkers which were
approximately the height of two such tables. Say the
bunker was about this height, above a head of a human
being.
Q. All right. You are indicating about six and a
half, seven feet?
A. I would think so. In other words, a man who
would climb on it would have to lift his hands and
sort of make an exercise in order to swing himself on
top of the bunker. This bunker had air lifts, openings
for airing, approximately three or four, along, which
were covered by wooden or some lid which was easily
removable.
THE COURT: Covered by ---
THE WITNESS: Lids. From the distance I couldn't see
if it was a wooden or a metallic lid. Then I saw Sanitäts
Dienst Gefreiter, which is ---
Q. And you called it ....
A. The sanitation service corporal. And he came
having about four or five of those Zyklon tubes which
I knew very well from loading into the Red Cross van.
And he came to the bunker and he put them down, and
then he started to put those lids, those tins on top
of the bunker until he had them all on. And then he
climbed on the bunker by holding on his hands and in a
sporty way swinging himself over, which attracted my
attention because it was not usually the demeanour of
S.S. men to make sport. He then, on top of this bunker,
took out a gas mask which he had hang over and put on
the gas mask, and with something which, from a
distance of about fifty yards, opened the lid of the
Zyklon-B tubes, which was well-known to me from
distance, and then he went to one of the vents in a leisurely step, opened the
vent and shoved in the content of the tin in the vent
in a leisurely way, and when he was finished he a
couple of times has hit the ---
Q. Indicating tapped the tin.
A. Tapped on that opening. Then he closed the
opening, opens the tin, again in a rather leisurely
way, having the gas mask on, and went to the next vent
where the procedure was repeated until he dropped into
each vent one or two of those tins -- sometimes one,
sometimes two. And when he cleared it he took the
empty vents to the edge of the bunker, climbed down
from the bunker, took the empty tins again down from
the bunker, put down his gas mask, put the gas mask
back into his holder, and with the tins under the
hands walked away, disappearing inside the crematorium.
Q. Did you see any people come out of the
crematorium, any of the hundreds that you saw go in?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. Did you see any of the hundreds of people you
saw go into the crematorium go out?
MR CHRISTIE: So far he didn't say he saw hundreds
go in.
THE WITNESS: No. I saw the crematoria, and within
the vicinity of the crematoria from January 1943 until
April 7, 1944, as the time went, this was the first
crematorium and this is where I was witnessing the
gassings of the first in the crematorium. Soon after
the crematorium, three were opened. They are called II
and III, because Krematorium I was a smaller
arrangement, which was in Auschwitz I, and we are here Auschwitz II, and later there was Krematorium IV
and Krematorium V, all of them surrounded with a
barbed fence, electrically charged, with towers to
guard, and the entrance was only this side to
Krematorium IV and Krematorium V, and entrance was
this side to Krematorium II and to Krematorium III.
Until the day 7 April, 1944, this railway line was
reaching only about to this gate.
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: Halfway up the camp.
A. That's right. And there were none of that roads.
Therefore they were not recorded on the map which I
prepared after my escape in Slovakia in April 1944.
Similarly, on that map which is one of the exhibits,
it can be seen that it is only indicated that this is
the building, but it was not finished on April 7.
Q. Can you describe for us what would go on inside
the mortuary? Can you describe what you saw out the
window? What would go on inside the mortuary?
A. Inside the mortuary in Block 27?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. This means inside the mortuary.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. The procedure was the following:
This is the blocks of the male camp, and that were
store out in front of the block. In other words, when
there was called to roll appel, to roll call, which
was twice a day, in the morning at six and in the
evening before the dark, before the sun set, then all
prisoners had to line up in front of their barracks.
Now, those who couldn't stand to the
ine-up were, dead or alive, lined up in tens in
rows, laying in such a way that the first person would
have his legs spread and the second person would be
put on him with the head between the legs, and his own
legs spread. So that we were in tens -- five heads on
one side and five heads on other side, easy to count.
Then the prisoners had to line up. We had to line in
front of the barrack. This is a barrack, and the
prisoners were lined up in rows of ten and so on.
So usually in front of such a barrack in Birkenau,
in front of each barrack there is an estimate of eight
hundred, one thousand, two thousand people in front of
barrack. Now the people had to line up in rows of ten
in such a way that when the S.S. man came to count
them, he had a long ruler and he could rule this way
or this way by walking by the lines in front or the
side, and could see, without too much counting, how
many rows of ten are there, and that nobody from the
rows missing. If there were 953 people, then you had
ninety-five rows and three in the last row.
Now, those who couldn't stand were out laying, the
dead and alive together, in such rows, and they were
again stapled up to ten.
Q. Stacked up to ten.
A. Stacked up to ten.
Q. When the signal came to count -- now, can I have
all the other maps?
MR GRIFFITHS: May I have the barrack map, Your
Honour, shwoing [showing] the roll call,
Exhibit 17, or the drawing?
--- EXHIBIT NO. 17: Transparency of sketch
showing roll call.
THE WITNESS: There came a signal which was given by
a gong, and from that moment on nobody who moved in
the camp -- no movement in the camp was allowed. This
means anybody who would move, apart from the S.S.,
would be shot. Then the S.S., when everything was
absolutely still, counted -- a separate S.S. -- the
number of prisoners in each Block, and this was
conveyed to a table here in the middle where the camp
commander was sitting, and his registrars, and he knew
exactly how many people are in the camp on that
particular evening, and it was then said that so many
and so many prisoners are present. It was not
identified if they are dead or alive.
When everything was all right, then that was the
end of the roll call. If one prisoner was missing in
the general count, then the procedures were initiated
to find the prisoner, and if that prisoner wasn't
find, either in the latrine or under some bed, within
twenty minutes an alarm went out that the prisoner is
missing; but this happened very rarely.
Once this count has been confirmed, the roll call
was called off, but before it was called off guards
mounted the towers which are here in small quadrangles,
and the camp was thus hermetically sealed. In other
words, it was known that nobody of a prisoner can be
found between the inner and outer perimeter. This
means the roll call confirmed that all prisoners in
Birkenau camp -- at that time only this camp was
operating -- all prisoners were inside this quadrangle
and prisoners were inside this quadrangle. And then,
with the exception of prisoners who might have been at
the ramp under special guard -- and this was noted, that so
and so, many are under such and such a guard, and when
it was agreed that this is so, then electricity was
switched into the wires and that is guards were called
off because there was nobody in between.
After that the bodies were being disposed. So this
means, if I can have ....
We are starting a procession. One man carried one
body, and from the whole camp you could see a peculiar
doubles marching to this place.
Q. Indicating a mortuary.
A. Yes. And sometimes it was difficult to see which
one is dead and which one is alive because they were
bone and skin. So that the live one was carrying the
dead one with his head here and dragging him behind
and holding on his hands, brought him to the mortuary,
and there he put him down and the name of the dead one
was written down in a book and the dead body was
stapled here and in this wooden shack the bodies were
stapled in tens again so that it can be easily counted.
Q. Stacked in tens.
A. Stacked in tens. And in the months of January,
February, March, April 1943 the number of bodies were
between three hundred and five hundred. The number of
people in the camp varied close to fifteen thousand,
very rough estimate.
MR CHRISTIE: Is that fifteen or fifty?
THE WITNESS: Fifteen. In the main camp, roughly.
This means it can be twelve, it can be eighteen. It varied from ---
MR GRIFFITHS: That's just the males, not the women?
A. Not the women, no. The women -- between the men
and the women there was a road and gates, so that
there was no communication; but the same process was
going on at the women's camp. They were like mirror
camps.
Now, here the bodies were stacked, and waited until
midnight. At midnight there was some working done on
the bodies.
THE COURT: There was a ....
THE WITNESS: Work done on the bodies. There was a
special Kommando, work group, which was called
Leichekommando [Leichenkommando], dead body
Kommando, and they used a special instrument which in
modern times the ladies use for curling the hair.
MR CHRISTIE: Again, I don't know, I don't know
whether this witness is giving hearsay evidence.
THE WITNESS: I happened to be present. This was
taking place while I was sitting here having the
coffee with Wetzler. And two younger boys who were the
assistants were opening the mouths of the dead bodies
and with the mirror checking if he had got gold teeth.
If there were gold teeth, he went in with that
instrument and broke out those gold teeth and they
were put into a tin.
Normally, when there were three, four hundred
bodies, the tin would be the size of a litre tin which
was full, and it was gold and meat tissue and blood altogether.
Now, around midnight would come some S.S. man with
the same lorry which I have described many times from
that lorry fleet, and he would ask for the paper for
the dead which Fred, my friend, has prepared, and I
often help him with that.
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: That's Fred Wetzler?
A. Wetzler, yes. And then, with assistance would
load the body on to the truck which was done in such a
way with four assistants -- two were on the truck and
two were down on the truck and two were swinging the
body to the truck, and when the body hits a truck, the
two on the truck again took the body and swung it into
the back of the truck, and at the back of the truck
there were again two guys and they were doing this
....
Q. Stacking?
A. Stacking into tens; and when all was finished,
when all was finished then the papers between the S.S.
men and Wetzler were exchanged, in which Wetzler got a
receipt for so and such bodies of such and such
numbers, and such and such tin of gold teeth. But the
habit was that the S.S. men liked to write, "Half
a tin", because the tin was full, of one tin, or
"One tin" when there were two tins. And when
Wetzler signed that, he got a box of cigars.
The bodies, then, I could see the car when it was
loaded -- can I have the picture, please -- when out
this road. Here was the first gate.
Q. Indicating a road in the middle of the men's camp.
A. Yes. These were brick barracks, and these were
wooden barracks, and here is a road which was wide
enough for trucks. The trucks went this way. By the
way everything was written up here, thousands of bulbs
were burning.
THE COURT: Everything was lit up?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Thousands of bulbs were burning.
And he went here with a car, and then he came here to
the gate, then he turned at the gate. At the gate he
was searched. The car was searched at the gate -- if
there is no living body hidden in the car. So a sort
of a search went through.
Once that search went through, he turned the car
here, went here into the crematoria and behind the
corner, which I couldn't see ....
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: All right. If you couldn't see it,
you can't tell us what happened.
A. And then I saw him after five minutes returning
this way and going home.
Q. Out the camp ....
A. Out of the camp, his duty was finished.
Q. What happened to the people that were not dead
but were stacked with the dead people at the roll call?
You said those who couldn't stand up for the roll call
were stacked with the dead people.
MR CHRISTIE: I didn't hear him say that.
MR GRIFFITHS: Well, I did. Have I got that wrong?
MR CHRISTIE: There's been a fair amount of leading
thus far, but I do suggest that is a leading statement.
Maybe the witness will agree with it. I don't know.
THE COURT: I don't agree with it, and that's the
important thing. One, he has not been -- the Crown has
not been leading, and two, I heard the witness say
that the living and the dead were stacked up together.
Is that correct?
THE WITNESS: That is correct.
THE COURT: Then please answer Crown counsel's
question.
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: What happened to those who were
living who were not able to stand for the roll call?
A. There were several procedures which varied from
place to place.
THE COURT: Just what you know.
THE WITNESS: From what I have seen.
THE COURT: From what you have seen, exactly.
THE WITNESS: Some of the Block leaders -- this
depended on the decision of the Block leaders. May I
please have the map again?
The Block leaders might have decided a short
process, in which case the half the prisoners was
killed in a way that the coffee was brought in
demijohns, and they had ears through which carrying
woods, stacked through.
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: Could you compare a demijohn to a
milk can in terms of size?
A. Yes. The tea was carried, was carried into the
Block in a demijohn from the barrack container which
would contain tea for thousand people which was big at
least two hundred fifty litres, if every party should
get at least one fifth of a litre, and these had two
ears made -- the barrel was from wood and the ears
were made from metal. In order that such a bottle can
be carried, there were two wooden rods of considerable
massivity which were pulled through the ears, and two
prisoners, one here and one here, would hold it -- I
am not a very good painter -- and carry it. They were
carrying it from the kitchen to the barrack; and when
it was emptied from the barrack to the kitchen.
Now, these rods ---
Q. The wooden rods?
A. The wooden rods, when the thing was not carried,
were not in those ears but laying by the side. So the
people who were still alive and the Blockältester, or
the Block senior, was one of the German professional
criminals with the green triangle.
Q. We will get to that.
A. Then he would put the rod upon the neck of the
prisoner and balance on it for a minute of two until
there was no sign of life, and ---
Q. You saw this with your own eyes?
A. Many times. Now, there were other Blockältesters
who didn't like this procedure, and they had
introduced -- we need a map, the map of Birkenau.
THE COURT: Exhibit 18.
MR GRIFFITHS: That would be the sketch of the
barrel, Your Honour.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 18: Transparency --
Sketch of a barrel.
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: Now, you put on Ehxibit 16, which
is the map of Birkenau.
A. This was a main kitchen here.
Q. Indicating the upper left quadrangle of what you
described the men's camp in the bottom in that
quadrangle.
A. Yes. And this was a so-called sauna where the
newcomers from the ramp were bathed and shaven and
deprived of their clothes.
Q. And that's in the upper righthand quadrangle at
the bottom of that quadrangle?
A. Yes. That's "F". But here, this Block
was called Block 7 and Block 8 and was called
Krankenbau, which means building for sick people -- in
other words, I should have translated it to hospital,
but I don't dare to translate it as such because it
means something different in our language, and I am
trying to reproduce the vernacular of the Nazi
language as it was used at that time.
Now, this prisoners, this procedure required a
little bit of paperwork because the Blockältester,
the senior of the Block, had to make a transfer list
and send that person with the transfer list to this
Krankenbau, to this hospital, where he was accepted
and put in a bunker.
Q. You've been in the hospital?
A. Yes, several times, because Fred Wetzler, when
he was not working in the mortuary, was stationed in Barrack 7 for taking care of the
half-dead. In other words, the difference between
taking care of dead and half-dead was sort of done by
the same person.
Now, in this Krankenbau there were absolutely no
facilities for any medical treatment, and as a rule
there was no water or mineral water, and there were no
beds but certain bunks. That looked from inside this
way. There was a wall along the barrack and this is a
wall, and along this wall there were three rows of
boxes, like pens for animals, and those sick people
were put five per pen into the pen with one blanket or
with no blanket, and they didn't have to go any more
for roll call. The roll call were done simply that by
walking around, they counted five per pen as they
didn't bother to drag them out and to drag them back;
and when somebody was dead, then the living threw him
out from the pen and then he was collected and was
proclaimed dead.
The number of those who came into this hospital and
survived was perhaps one to a hundred, the chances. In
other words, a hospital was sort of -- the Krankenbau
was such a thing that when the Blockältester was
fussy and didn't want to kill the prisoner who was
dying, they brought him to this so-called hospital and
there he was left to die. However, it was a hospital
filled up too much, so that there was no space; there
is no space for more than seven or eight hundred
prisoners. Then one of those trucks would come into
the hospital.
Q. Exhibit 16 ....
A. One of the trucks would come here with an SDG --
Sanitäts Dienst Gefreiter -- Corporal of the Sanitary
Service, and all prisoners now had to go for a
roll call. All were dragged out from those bunks
and lined up, and those who were not standing went to
one side, and those who could not stand were taken
back into the block, or sometimes they decided that
the whole situation is untenable, in which case the
dead and the dying were loaded on that truck, which I
know from the ramp and the mortuary, they were loaded
on the truck. If it went standing, then standing; if
it went legs, then legs. The truck was closed, turn,
came out here, came out here, and moved here, and
that's the last we saw from them.
Q. In the Krematorium II?
A. In the Krematorium. Papers were signed so that
the truck driver had to sign that he took so and so
many prisoners away.
So that the next roll call, the Blockältesters,
the senior of the block, has got a paper saying that,
"I've got so and so much prisoners", and the
missing ones have to be taken away on the truck.
THE COURT: Exhibit 19 will be the sketch of the
barrack of the sick.
MR GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 19: Transparency -- Sketch of
barrack of sick persons.
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: You told us earlier that initially
there was, in January, when you first moved to
Birkenau, that there was just a barbed wire fence
around Krematorium II. Did that ever change?
A. Barbed wire fence?
Q. I think that's what you said.
A. Yes. Can I have the picture?
Q. Did that ever change? Was there ever any change
in that fencing?
A. There was no change in the fencing except that
the krematorium, this crematorium, Krematorium II, had
the fencing perimeter, and Krematorium III was not
finished. When Krematorium III was finished some time
later, they connected the fences and made common
entrances for both crematoria; whereas before this was
finished and this was finished several months later,
there was entrance only here.
Q. Krematorium II?
A. Yes. So they adjust the fences around the
crematoria as they built up the crematoria.
Similarly, they started to build simultaneously
Krematorium IV and Krematorium V, which I had many
times opportunity to see after I had been transferred.
Q. Now, you said you were working on the ramps, and
in Kanada, I believe you said until June 8, 1943.
A. Right.
Q. And did you change jobs?
A. Yes. There came a possibility and an opportunity
to change jobs.
Q. And were there any -- perhaps you can explain to
us what your new job was and any changes in the camp
that led to your new job.
A. While seeing going on the mass murder on the
ramp, I had plans to escape from the ramp. However,
without going into details what was the weaknesses of
the ramp and what was the plans of the escape, I
suddenly realized that the Germans noticed the
weaknesses too and made great architectural changes on the
ramp which made my escape from the ramp not probable
as a success. And therefore I used the opportunity, on
June 8th, for June 8th this was already build up --
between January 15, 1943 and June 8, 1943 they were
building this camp, which was a camp BII, Birkenau IIB
-- this was Birkenau I, IA and IB.
Now, this complex was Birkenau II, and then it had
subsections "A", "B",
"C", "D", "E" and
"F", whereas Birkenau I had subsections
"A" and "B", "A" being
the women, and "B" being the men.
Now, all men from Birkenau IB were transferred to
Birkenau IID; that was our new camp. This was a new
male camp, and after disinfecting the remaining
barracks the women got both parts of this camp. In
other words, there was a bigger influx or bigger need
for female wards, and they converted them,
"A" and "B" in June into women
camp, whereas all men were in "B" IID.
Now, by that time I was a year or almost a year in
the concentration camp Auschwitz, and anybody who
lived that long started to have various friends.
Acquaintances were struck up, mainly acquaintances
which came from freedom and were often of political
nature -- people who were in the same trade union or
in the same Czech Nationalist Party, or in the same
Polish Army unit, or in the same brigade in Spain
during the fight against Franco, or in the same
district of a Communist Party, or of a Social
Democratic Party, they recognize themselves and they
started to organize themselves clandestinely.
Q. Clandestinely?
A. Yes.
Q. Secretly?
A. Secretly, yes, because any sort of such an
organization would be punished draconically. This was
against the rules. However, the objective of that was
to improve the camp living standards, and this was
necessary by eliminating the criminals from their
position.
Q. You can stop there. You mentioned this earlier,
and I wonder if we can take this opportunity to talk
about the different categories of prisoners at
Birkenau and Auschwitz and how, whether they were
identifiable from their uniform, their prison garb and
how they were identifiable.
A. Well, with some experience it was possible for
an experienced man in Auschwitz to identify from a
simple look at the prisoner quite a few things, but
for that one required already some experience, because
there were no handbooks.
Now, each prisoner had a number, not only tattooed
on his hand, but also sewn on his garb, and say if a
prisoner had a number 23220 on his garb, there was a
triangle, and if the triangle was red, this means that
they considered him a political prisoner. If the
triangle was green -- I don't have green pencils here
-- this means that the prisoner is a criminal by
profession before he came to the camp. If the triangle
was violet, that meant that he is in concentration
because of studying the Bible, this means pacifist
gentleman, Jehovah Witnesses who came to concentration
camp because they made pacifist propaganda which
didn't suit the Nazis.
Q. Well, anyway, Jehovah Witnesses.
A. Yes. Those who had black triangles were called
anti-social elements, and that comprised either people
who were accused of avoiding honest work. Then there
were a different colour of purple, which were people
who were accused of homosexuality.
So by this, as far as the Jews were concerned, who
were the majority in the camp, they had a red triangle,
but underneath the red triangle there was a yellow
triangle, so that it altogether gave a David Star with
a yellow background which meant political Jew.
Now, by looking at the people I could, for instance,
say that if somebody had the number 30000 and had a
political triangle, red with a yellow background, I
knew that he is probably a Slovak Jew just by looking
at him and from the number, because I knew when the
number came in. I came in into Auschwitz on 30 June,
1944 [1942], and my number was 44000, and
because to recognize with whom I am meeting, and the
camp was full of victims of the so-called political
department -- this means informants -- there were many
informers who came into the camp and left children,
mothers, fathers and so on at home and the political
department said, "Either you work for us or we
kill your children" ---
THE COURT: No, just a moment.
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: You can only tell us what you
heard or saw, not what somebody else said to you.
A. Right. It was necessary to recognize the people
as much as possible in order to survive. So those were
the times.
p. 1346
Q. All right. So before I stop you, you are going
to tell us what your new job is that you are able to
get because of your connections and seniority in the
camp.
A. Having had considerable seniority after living
almost one year in the camp and looking healthy, again
-- I, of course, went through typhus and various
things, but after I overcome it and collected myself,
I gain the confidence of various members of various
political parties.
THE COURT: Just ---
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: Tell us what you did or what you
were assigned to.
A. I were assigned to be assistant registrar in
Block IID.
Q. What does that mean? What does a registrar do?
A. I was in Block IID, in Birkenau IID, Block 9,
and an assistant registrar would have a file of
prisoners who are in this block, in Block 9.
Q. In the barracks, yes.
A. And would, on their account, go to the kitchen
and get the bread and soup and tea for those people,
and he would also, every day, prepare the papers for
the roll call. So he would say that of this barrack
are 920 people; of that are 397 Jews, 257 Poles and 22
Germans -- something like that -- the statistics of
the barrack. And as long as there was no hitch with
the roll call, he didn't have much else to do.
In other words, it was an easy work. If the roll
call didn't fit, then he was in danger, because if he made an error and the roll call had to stand
and the whole S.S. had to stand a couple of hours
until they found out he made an error in the number of
prisoners that nobody was missing, then he was killed.
So there is a risk, but otherwise reasonably
comfortably work.
Q. Now, from being assistant registrar in the men's
camp, Birkenau II, did you change your job again?
A. Very soon. In July 1943 they open a new camp.
Meanwhile this camp was occupied, "B", these
two rows, and they opened a camp BIIA, which was
quarantine camp.
Q. Quarantine camp?
A. Quarantine camp. And they started a new way of
accepting prisoners. Until then, once they accepted
the prisoners from ramps -- this means those who were
selected for work and not to be trucked away you know
where -- those prisoners were first put into the
quarantine camp for two, three or four months so that
the health officers of Auschwitz can say that they are
decreasing the dangers of typhus by having the new
ones -- because typhus and various diseases at
Auschwitz are caused from outside, so consequently,
when there was a transport from the ramp came, and
those who were chosen not to work, they were then
transported either here into this complex, but those
who were chosen to work were transported in the
quarantine camp and registered.
Now my job was to take the names, to take their
nationality, birth date, background. There was a card
about everyone -- age, profession, various
informations -- race, origin of place -- and then he
said that he lived in Block 6 or Block 7 or Block 8. So
this means, when a transport of three thousand people
came and two thousand seven hundred went into these
barracks ---
Q. In the direction of the crematoria.
A. --- or in this direction, then three hundred
came here.
Q. Into the quarantine camp.
A. Quarantine camp. And now I had the possibility
of speaking with them because they saw elderly
prisoner better dressed with pencil and paper,
etcetera, and the possibility of giving them a piece
of bread.
Q. Now, you can't tell us what was said to you, but
can you show us which barrack, or which block you were
a recorder or registrar of?
A. I was registrar of Barrack 15.
Q. Second from the gate.
A. This was the main gate. This means that any
truck whatever had to pass into Birkenau complex
either through this main gate, this means I could see
in the distance of approximately forty to fifty yards,
or it went this way -- this is the road.
Q. On the bottom of the camp?
A. Yes. This was not built up, and there was only
one way which led into Krematorium IV and Krematorium
V. So this means that by daytime, if the transports
arrived from the ramp, I could count every car which
went either this way, every truckload, or which went
either this way, and because my experience in Kanada
on the ramp, I knew that a hundred per truck, simply
by counting those trucks I knew how many people came
more or less; but I know that the number hundred was kept
pretty close. The trucks were coming by from the ramp
one after the other, but not very densely because it
takes the time to roll the truck and they came
accompanied by two motor bicycles, they were usually
the side cars, one motorbiker and on the side car a
machine gunner so that nobody gets any ideas of
jumping down from the truck.
And those cars went in front of my eyes here or in
front of my eyes here. In the night, when I was, say,
asleep at two o'clock, when such a car went by, my
barrack shook and all I had to do was to count how
many trucks went that way, or to count how many times
it went that way, because when you are in such a
barrack you know if it shakes from which side it
shakes, small distances.
Moreover, in my role as a registrar of the block I
had to many times go out in front of my block because
there are no windows, only on top, but I could, under
the pretext of controlling the guards in front of the
barracks who were responsible for the latrine -- in
other words, to control if the latrine is full, if the
latrine is not full -- you had to go out of the
barrack and take a look at what's happening. Moreover,
if the latrine was full, which was a barrel, in my
clothes which was a little bit better as a registrar I
would take the prisoners and tell them to empty the
barrels in the middle of the night into the lavatories,
here, so that the barrack is not, so to say,
contaminated by feces; and under the pretext of
sanitation, etcetera, I could many times in the night
take to prisoners this two big barrels of excrement
and move in the night to the official toilets, because by the night prisoners were not allowed to go to
the official toilets, they were not allowed to out to
the barracks and see what happened.
Q. May I stop you there?
MR GRIFFITHS: It is one o'clock, Your Honour. Is
this a convenient time?
THE COURT: Two thirty.
--- The jury retires. 1:00 p.m.
--- The witness stands down.
--- Luncheon adjournment.
-------------
--- Upon resuming.
--- The witness returns to the stand.
--- The jury returns. 2:30 p.m.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Griffiths.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank You, Your Honour.
Prior to the morning break there was a transparency
on which Dr Vrba made some notations as to the
different colours of badges, and I'd ask that that be
marked as the next exhibit, please, Your Honour.
THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 20.
MR GRIFFITHS: Thank you.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 20: Transparency -- sketch
describing triangles worn by camp inmates.
Q. Dr Vrba, this morning, at the break you were describing for us your new position in the
camp close to the main gate and your new job as a
block registrar or block recorder.
A. The translation would be Block Scribe.
Q. Could you just tell us, briefly, about what the
organization of the camp would be in terms of -- you
mentioned block elders and block registrars. How was
the camp organized in that way?
A. This is Auschwitz I, the external perimeter of
guards. This is Auschwitz I, the internal perimeter of
guards, and I have magnified this quadrant so that it
is clear what was inside.
Q. This is the internal camp of Auschwitz I?
A. Of Auschwitz I.
MR CHRISTIE: Perhaps he would be so kind as to
identify the origin of this drawing.
THE COURT: Yes, I agree. Go ahead, Mr Griffiths.
Would you do that for us, please?
MR GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Can you tell us where this plan of Auschwitz I
comes from?
MR CHRISTIE: I think it comes from Phillip Mueller.
THE WITNESS: It comes from Martin Gilbert's book,
"Auschwitz and the Allies".
MR GRIFFITHS: If I may lead, does it come from a
book by Phillip Mueller?
A. This is quite possible. This is quite possible,
but no matter which book it comes, I can
recognize it as an original drawing and identify
each building here.
Q. All right. I am not going to ask you to identify
each building, but perhaps you could indicate to us
how the hierarchy of the prison, of the concentration
camp, the organization of the blocks of the camps ....
A. Here is the main entrance to the camp. The camp
is surrounded with a double layer of electrical fences,
and those are the guarded towers. This construction
here is a kitchen.
Q. Rough U-shape at the bottom of the drawing.
A. Is a kitchen. On top of the kitchen is an
inscription, "For all prisoners". Now, the
blocks are numbered from 1 to 11. This is a former
female camp that I mentioned yesterday.
Q. That you crawled through naked after the typhus
epidemic?
A. Yes.
Q. And after that I was stationed in the cell area
of Block 4. Block 11 was the so-called punishment
block which belonged to the realm of organization
which called herself political department of Auschwitz
concentration camp. Basically, this was the
interrogation place.
Q. I am going to stop you. Unless you were in there,
you can't tell us about it.
A. Pardon?
Q. Unless you were in there, you can't tell us
about it.
A. I have been stationed for some time, and when I
worked in Buna, in Block 10, from the windows of Block
10 I could see what was happening here.
Q. In Block 11.
A. However, I was in Block 4. Each of the blocks
had Blockälteste, senior prisoner, and this senior
prisoner, in each block, had a second in command, then
each block had the Blockschreibe [Blockschreiber],
which translated literally would mean block scribe not
registrar.
Q. But we have been calling that block registrar
this morning.
A. Yes. Literary translation would be "scribe".
Q. Thank you.
A. Each of those block scribes knew exactly how
many prisoners are in each of the blocks, and here, I
think, in one of these blocks ---
Q. To the left of the kitchen.
A. --- to the left of the kitchen was a building
which was called Hauptschreib stube, which translated
means Chief Writing office. This means Central
Registration Office. Each prisoner brought to the camp
and through this gate would be first processed. This
means he would be taken into the sauna for a bath,
which would be Block 1, I think, and he would go in
and leave his clothes outside, and when he comes out
on the other side, he will be naked and he will get
prisoner garb.
From that moment on the only permitted property of
a prisoner was one handkerchief. Pencil, paper,
anything of that sort was considered conspiracy and
would be punished very strictly if found on regular
visits.
After this was the scribes from the Central Office
and would take chairs and tables and parade the
prisoners. Each prisoner would have a file card on
which was his name, birth date, nationality, origin
and date when he came in, plus a place for special
remarks, and his number, which he received in the
camp. The numbers were consecutive and the dead
prisoners' number was never revealed.
After the file has been made, the file has been
given to one of the block scribes wherever it was a
decision that this particular prisoner goes, and then
the card was in the file of the block scribe as well
as a file in the Central Office.
Thus, the scribes in each of those blocks knew
exactly how many prisoners are at any time there, and
if a prisoner died he has to be identified by his
number, which at the start was written with grey
pencil, with an ink pencil, on his forearm and on his
chest so that the bodies of dead which accumulated
every day in front of the blocks were identified in
the evening by reading the numbers.
Q. Did that system change of writing the numbers on
in ink?
A. The system of ink writing numbers changed
because the ink wore off, and so it was replaced with
tattooing. So this would be approximately the same in
Birkenau.
Q. Can you show us where in Birkenau that process
would take place?
A. Yes. Yes. In Birkenau the map of Birkenau is
here.
Q. Exhibit 16.
A. And when I refer to Birkenau, and always this
far in January 1943 was occupied by prisoners. The
Schreibstube was in Block 4 which would mean this
block -- 1, 2, 3, 4 -- here was the Schreibstube.
Q. So that is the upper righthand quadrant of
Birkenau I in the first row of blocks.
A. Here. When the men in this main camp were
transferred to Bau Auschwitz II, building Section I to
Building Section II, then this Section II, the only
prisoners were in building Section IID. That is here,
these two rows. This here was a kitchen, and this here
was a Chief Schreibstube.
Q. And you are indicating the kitchen immediately
below the words "BIID", or the numbers or
letters.
A. Yes.
Q. And opposite that in the "BIID" camp
was the Registrar's Office.
A. That's right. Now, when I was transferred from
BIID into BIIA, then the Registrar's Office, if I
remember well, was here in Block 1, the Chief
Registrar's Office.
Q. And that would be the Registrar in what camp?
A. For BII 8.
Q. For the quarantined camp?
A. Yes. I was in No. 15, the block scribe. I was
the sub to the first scribe in BIID, whose name was
Gorrik (phonetic) a prisoner with the number of 32000, and this chief scribe was then sub to the chief
scribe in Auschwitz I.
So that at the top of the hierarchy was the top
administration of Auschwitz I, and the administration
in Auschwitz II, as far as prisoners is concerned,
went through Chief Scribe in BIID under whom were all
scribes, each in the individual blocks, and the Chief
Scribe of BIIA.
Q. Now, the lorries that you heard coming by in the
nighttime, or that you saw going in the daytime, can
you tell us if they ever went to the registration
places?
A. No. The people who went to registration places
were never brought in by lorry. They were marched from
the ramp, which was not more than one half kilometer
away, under guard, into the sauna.
Q. Yes. In the men's camp.
A. Yes, in the men's camp. And when this men's camp
became a female camp, then they were marched on foot
between Krematoria IV and V. There was also a sauna. I
am not so sure what exactly it is -- "F" on
this map -- because much has been changed. This map
has been made approximately two, three months after I
escaped from certain details, I would say.
So all those prisoners who went in through the
registration process and have got a number came to the
camp on foot, because they were small groups. Those
who came into the camp from the ramp on those dumping
trucks, they never enter any of those camps, but enter
the camp by only one possible entrance -- two possible
entrances. The main entrance was here.
Q. You indicate "A" at the bottom of the
diagram.
A. That's right. This was a big tower and a
building of a rather considerable length which harbour
inside the building, according to my observations, a
so-called Bereitschoft, which means emergency unit.
This means that day or night there was a unit of S.S.
which was completely dressed and armed, you know, just
like in an ambulance waiting for any event. So this
was a research, which did have nothing to do but to be
called up in case of trouble.
Can I have the picture, please?
Consequently, the lorries which came from the ramp
entered this gate and went to the landing between
Krematorium II and Krematorium III, which were having
a common queue of guards. Here you can see the towers
-- 1, 2, 3, 4.
Another way how to transport the victim to the
Krematorium IV and V was that they went here and
between BIID and BIIC, which is here. BIIC is this
camp, and BIID this camp; here a road of considerable
width. And this road ends here blindly and goes into
the yard of Krematorium IV and Krematorium V, which is
again enclosed with an electrical fence and guarded
towers. Here is a gate to it.
Consequently, those prisoners who came to the camp
were coming on foot, and because there was now, from
June 8th, 1943, registrar, I could see each face of
them because they had to pass through registration in
this camp which was their first stop. They stayed
there for three, four weeks, or three, four months.
The administration in that respect weren't very clear and many
of them died in quarantine.
Q. All right. Now, Dr Vrba, if I can go ahead a
little bit to the events surrounding April 7.
A. My escape.
Q. Yes, sir. And I am going to ask you, we heard a
lot about a chain of guards and electric fences, and I
am going to ask you how you escaped.
A. If I may first have the previous picture, if I
may.
THE COURT: You are looking at Exhibit ....
MR GRIFFITHS: 16, Your Honour.
THE WITNESS: This was Building Section 1. This was
called Building Section 2. And in April 7, when I
escaped, the Building Section 1 was full, but Building
Section 2 was not quite full. Here was a quarantine
camp in "A". In "B" was a family
camp which had a tragic end. They are Czech families
from Theresienstadt, a ghetto, who were kept for six
months before they were gassed on 7 March, just before
I escape. This camp was empty. Here, in "D",
was the main camp and the main mass of the prisoners.
In "E" were gypsies, because the gypsies had
not been considered Aryan race, were rounded up and
kept here for some time in "BIIE" until they
were later gassed, and that's "BIIE". Here
is a small camp called "BIIF", and this was
called the hospital camp.
So from this hospital in Block No. 7 they made a
quite a big complex of number of things. This third
part was in building and it was not called anything at that time except it is a future building Section
3.
Now, because those barracks did not yet exist, but
the wood for those barracks did exist ---
Q. The wood for the barracks.
A. Yes. And the wood was put together in the way
how you see wood put together in large shops in
Toronto which sell lumber. Say if you are coming to a
lumber yard, you can see ten wagons on foot stapled in
a certain way.
Q. Stacked?
A. Stacked. Now, when the woods were stacked, the
building of the woods of the stack was made in such a
way that there was a stack of approximately ten wagons
of wood. The stack has an irregular shape as in the
lumber business yards, and in one part there was an
empty space made, not filled with wood, and covered
again with wood.
Now, I would like to go to the -- and this was
approximately here.
Q. Indicating in the future building area 3.
A. In the future building area 3. Now, I would like
to show this place which I will mark here with a
pencil. Roughly here. Now, the system --
MR GRIFFITHS: We are going to put on Exhibit No.
11.
THE WITNESS: Now, I have this whole map in a larger
scale as it was drawn up by me from my memory back in
1944, and that place which I marked as a hiding place
was here.
Now, the system which operated against prevention of escape was a system common to all
German concentration camps, and because the Germans
had an experience of concentration camps since 1933,
it was considered foolproof.
Q. I am going to stop you and ask you about the
system in this camp that you know of.
A. Right. The system was the following:
There were the killer camps including the
crematoria here surrounded by barbed wires which
consisted of electrical fences in double rows; and
before this barbed wire there was a ditch which could
be approximately four to five yards deep.
Q. Did you see that?
A. Yes, because you couldn't not see it, living in
the camp. Now, this ditch has been made by hand by the
prisoners. It was a long process. They had to ditch it
-- the earth was carried in hats, and enormous ditches
were built. Now, again this is in red. Here is the
electric fence, and here was a gate to the individual
subsections -- Section 1 1, Section 1 2, Section 1 3,
etcetera.
By daytime, when the day broke, the prisoners were
woken up by the dawn and lined up in front of their
barracks for the roll call.
Q. Now, if it all checked out, the roll call was
all right, what happened then?
A. When the roll call was all right, the prisoners
were aligned for work outside the inner camp in this
outer area, and when it was given the signal that the
roll call was all right, then guards marched out, different guards, to this area.
Q. The outer chain of sentry posts on your map.
A. That's right. Now, this outer chain of sentries
then operated in such a way that when each was on its
place and this was a diameter of about two kilometers,
thus it was about six kilometers long and not
connected with the road, it was all smooth, so that
from the towers which are here marked, from a
crossfire not a mouse could come through.
Now, when the signal was given that everything is
all right here, then they went to their places and
were checked in the following way:
One guy shouted this direction, "The queue
stands". This guy shouted to this guy, and this
band, this shouting, until the shout of, "I am in
my place" started. Once this procedure was
finished, there was no use to keep the guards in this
electrically guarded fence, because prisoners were
enclosed here. The guards from here came down and went
home, and the electrical current was switched off.
Now, the prisoners marched to work in units of a
hundred, two hundred, three hundred or five hundred.
Say they marched to work in Krematorium IV and V, say
they marched to move earth for the camp, make it flat,
etcetera. So suddenly the camp is full with ten to
fifteen thousand prisoners -- not individual. I mean
the freedom of movement was not that an individual
prisoner could move around, just move around in
columns, teams, and each team had a Kapo and each Kapo
had a list of the prisoners which were accompanying
him for which he was personally responsible. So if one prisoner would
wander around here, around the place which was teeming
with S.S. men and Kapos, he would be very fast picked
up as a loiterer.
Now, my system, then, was the following .... Now I
need the other map.
Q. Exhibit 16 now is projected.
A. Yes. My job was every day to report to the Chief
Scribe. This means I went from my block to the Chief
Scribe of the block of this camp, and there were
collected all reports from each block -- how many
prisoners in each block, how many are dead, etcetera,
etcetera -- the technical details.
Now, the Chief Scribe could either take the bundle
of papers and bring it to the Chief Scribe here, or
say that he is busy and delegates his work to me,
which he did with considerable preference delegating
it to me for the following reasons ---
THE COURT: Well, he delegated his work to you.
MR GRIFFITHS: He delegated his work to you. So what
did you do when he delegated it to you? What freedom
of movement did you get?
A. Well, I got a certain freedom of movement. The
freedom of movement consisted that I was allowed to go
out of this gate. Here is a gate that I have to say my
number and the purpose of my trip. Then I would walk
here, which is a distance of approximately five
hundred yards. Here was again a gate.
Q. In "BIID"?
A. In "BIID". Here was again a gate and I had to say again my number. The number was
noted that I came, for what purpose and to what, and
go with the paper to the Scribe, the Chief Scribe.
Now, once I have done it, nobody really would
control me if I moved around the camp among the
thousand prisoners which moved around. Fred Wetzler
who was in the old camp was suddenly separated from me,
so it was natural that I would go to Fred Wetzler to
visit him and to discuss our mutual business. This was
already illegal, but not that risky because by daytime
there are not many S.S. men here inside, and I was
dressed like a scribe and they are not worried if I am
a scribe from this camp or that camp -- he wouldn't
know.
Secondly, I could do another thing. Using my trip I
would, instead of going here ....
Q. Into the men's camp.
A. .... into the men's camp, take a bundle of
papers and go between the crematoria into the baths;
that baths was used very frequently by members of the
Sonderkommando. The Sonderkommando had the property of
the people who had to undress before they went to the
gas chamber and were stealing quite a bit of it before
they were giving it to the Germans. Consequently, I
think the presence of various people who knew me and
marched here as if nothing happened back to my camp,
BIIA, where I had to go through the S.S. men, the S.S.
men would ask me, "Did you bring me the stockings?"
Q. You can't tell us what they said.
A. Pardon?
Q. You can't tell us what the S.S. men would say.
A. He did say.
THE COURT: Never mind what he said. Just answer the
question.
THE WITNESS: The S.S. men ---
THE COURT: Just a moment. Do a little more
controlling here, Mr Griffiths.
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: You can't tell us, Dr Vrba, the
words that were said by the S.S. men. Would you have
any conversation, without telling us what it is, with
the S.S. men?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And as a result of that conversation
would you do anything? Did you do anything as a result
of your conversation with him?
A. Yes, I did. As a result of this conversation,
produce a pair of stockings and give it to him. If I
did that he didn't ask me how come --
Q. I'm sorry, I think -- I don't think you can say
what he wouldn't ask you; but you'd give him the
stockings.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what effect, if anything, did that
have or seemed to have on your freedom of movement?
A. Well, this enabled me to move along this path
with relative freedom, because otherwise it was
checked on the clock when I left the camp and when I
came back to the camp, and it is clear that I had only
half an hour for that.
Q. How would you have access to that area where the
wood pile was? How would you have access to that area
where the wood pile was?
A. Just like I would go here. I could take a risk,
pretending that I am now not a block scribe, but a
what they call a foreman, with a bundle of papers, and
go here and move around that prisons and pretend that
I am writing or something. So I gained a certain
freedom of going frequently into this area, frequently
into this area, and frequently loitering around this
area.
Q. How was it you were able to escape? You said you
went into that area. What did you do?
A. Here was built up a bunker, as I mentioned, and
I knew that the bunker is built up.
Q. This is the wooden pile you told us about?
A. The wooden pile. That wooden pile was build up
by people unknown to me. This required a considerable
amount of organization to build it up, because
hundreds of prisoners had to build it.
Q. You can't tell us what you didn't see.
A. Yes.
Q. Specifically, on April 7th, what did you do, you
and Mr Wetzler?
A. On April 7 Wetzler and I had a meeting on this
place. This means that Wetzler, under a pretext, being
a scribe here ---
Q. BIID.
A. BIID -- went out from here and came here.
Q. To the roadway?
A. To the road. Along this road into the Mexico, into this building Part 3.
Q. The building part was called Mexico, into this
part of the camp?
A. This part of the camp later called Mexico, but
they called it in the building Part 3. And together so
that we could see one another we went by different
rows to the place where we were hiding, supposed to
hide. On that same place, again from different opinion,
two prisoners who were detached from BIID and were
detached to work in this camp ....
Q. Mexico.
A. In Mexico, in Section 3, absconded from their
group, and we all four met at the enormous wood pile
here and nobody could see us because the wood pile had
an irregular form. So there was sort of corridors made.
The two prisoners would then take down six or seven
layers of wood on a certain place. Wetzler and I would
slip into that place. They would cover it up and go
away. And now started a different process.
Now, for that I will need the bigger map. The
process was as follows:
At five o'clock, before it gets dark, all who work
in this area are marched back here.
Q. To the inner camp.
A. To the inner camp. When they are all in, the
gates are closed and the record on the gate is first
checked -- if everybody went back who went out. So
already they found a record that I went out but didn't
come back.
Q. If you are inside the woodpile, you can't tell
us, obviously, what was going on outside the woodpile. Did you ever have any experience as
to what would happen if there was a number short?
A. That's right. This is the system explaining.
This means that I knew in advance every step which
would take place, because I knew the system.
Q. Okay.
A. So where this happens, then the S.S. at the
gates did not become too nervous because they sometime
were sloppy. So in other words, the gates are closed,
the electric was put in and the roll call here start.
Q. Now, what happens if the roll call is short some
people and they can't be found in twenty minutes?
A. Meanwhile both queues are standing.
Q. So the outer chain of guards is standing as
well?
A. Yes.
THE COURT: Mr Griffiths, what you are doing here is,
the witness is extrapolating what would usually occur
because he knew the system. That has gone far enough.
Ask him what happened next, to his own personal
knowledge, because unless you can prove that the
system worked in precisely the same way in this case,
I am not interested in having anyone, especially the
jury, hear what he expected to happen, because that is
something within the confines of his own mind,
emanating from his own extrapolations.
MR GRIFFITHS: I think I have your point, Your
Honour. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: No. I could check on it.
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: No, Dr Vrba, please. You had some
understanding of what would happen from prior
experience. Don't tell us what you think happened
while you were inside the woodpile.
A. Right.
Q. Don't tell us that. How long were you hiding in
the woodpile?
A. I went in the woodpile on Friday afternoon on 7
April at two o'clock.
THE COURT: Would you say that again? I missed that.
THE WITNESS: I went into the woodpile on Friday
afternoon at two o'clock, 2:00 p.m., on 7 April, 1944.
Q. And when did you come out of the woodpile?
A. I came out from the woodpile on Monday, April
10th, 1944, at nine o'clock p.m., after certain
checking of the situation.
Q. All right. When you came out of the woodpile,
which direction did you go?
A. I came out from the woodpile first because I
could hear that the outer guards gave the signal to
withdraw in the usual way. This means I could hear it
and I knew that they have to make seventy-two hours.
Q. You heard them give the signal, "Stand
down"?
A. That's right. And at this moment I concluded
that there were no outer guards, that it is nine
o'clock in the evening, that the inner guards are
p. 1369 here and that I am basically a free
man.
Q. Which way did you go when you left the camp?
A. Well, I tried to first pass a sentry, and then
tried to go behind this little forest behind this
crematoria, and then to cross this railway line, and
behind the railway line I knew from previous
experience is a river called Sola, and I knew that the
river Sola, from certain investigations I made before
during my stay at the camp, goes between the camp
Auschwitz, which will be here, and the City of
Auschwitz which is approximately here.
Q. I'm sorry, you can't .... "City" is
the other circle you made?
A. This is the City of Auschwitz, and this is the
River Sola. This River Sola, I learned, originates on
the Slovak border in a place called Zwardon. When you
look at the map it is a rather straight river.
Q. All right. Let me stop you for just a minute.
When you came out of the woodpile and you circled
around to get to the River Sola can you tell us what
road, if any, you crossed on your way to the railway
line?
A. In the first line I found here, in this
distance.
Q. North of the woods.
A. North of the woods, and I approached it this
way, in the night, of course -- it was dark and it was
approximately midnight, something which I couldn't
differentiate between if it is a river or a road. It
was glistering. So I went by and put my fingers in and
I saw that it is sand. So that was a sandband
approximately eight meters wide which started from
nowhere, and I didn't know how far it goes, and I
suspected that this is a minefield. Consequently,
because I didn't know how far this went, which is not
a road but untouched sand, I decided, instead of going
around it, to take the risk and cross it. So I sensed
that I will cross that sand and that when he crosses
it after me, he should go carefully into the same step
which I went.
I crossed and nothing happened. Then he crossed
behind me carefully, using the same steps, and after
we have done it, we have seen that this so-called road
or sand or whatever it was ended approximately after
two, three hundred yards. So it was meant to be ---
THE COURT: Just a moment.
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: Don't tell us that. Just tell us
your observation. Now, you circled around, you said,
behind the woods?
A. I circled around behind the woods and reached
the railway line at five o'clock in the morning.
Q. Other than the sand that you've told us about
did you cross any roads?
A. None whatsoever. It was all moor. It was bog.
Because here the River Sola, and here is the River
Bistula [Vistula] which have got a lot of
meanders, which was boggy and marshy.
Q. I will stop you there for just a minute. I
understand that you made your way back to Slovakia.
A. Yes, please. I don't understand your question.
Q. Did you make it back -- did you get back to
Slovakia without getting caught?
A. I was caught by a patrol on the next Saturday
near a place called Poromka (phonetic) which opened
fire at me.
THE COURT: Just a moment. I am not -- if this is
relevant ....
MR GRIFFITHS: Well, Your Honour, I am trying to get
a little further down the road.
THE COURT: See if you can do that.
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: I know that things happened to you
on the way to Slovakia.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you get to Slovakia safely?
A. Yes. Across the Slovak border on Friday the 21st
April at ten o'clock in the morning.
Q. All right. When you got to Slovakia were you
able to meet with anybody and tell them of your
experiences?
A. Yes. That was my intention to do so, and to that
I directed my activity from that moment on.
Q. All right. Can you tell us where you met with
these people, what city?
A. I met with those people in the City of Cadca,
which was about thirty miles south of the border. I
came to the City of Cadca and I have, meanwhile,
collected the information that in City of Cadca lives
a doctor called Dr Pollok (phonetic).
Q. Through Dr Pollok were you able to make contact
with other people and tell your story?
A. That's right.
Q. All right. And the story that you told, what you
observed, did anybody write that down?
A. Immediately.
Q. All right. And did Mr Wetzler speak to these
people as well?
A. We were both together and speaking to these
people, which were representatives of the Jewish
Council of Slovakia, and actually, it was Dr Neumann,
Dr Oscar Newmann, engineer, Krasnansky ---
Q. And others?
A. And many others -- many lawyers.
Q. After you and Mr Wetzler spoke to these people
was something put down in writing?
A. That's right. While we were speaking to the
people they had brought a stenographer with them and
what I was saying was taken on a stenogram in absence
of Mr Wetzler. What Mr Wetzler was speaking was taken
on a stenogram in my absence.
Q. After you and Mr Wetzler spoke to these people,
was anything written about -- again, by the Jewish
people -- about what you had told them?
A. Yes. The stenograms were transcribed into a
typewritten text collating the statement of both of
us.
Q. Was that written by you or by others, the final
text?
A. The final text was typed by a typist, and was
presented to me for signature and to Wetzler, to
confirm that his typescript contains our words.
MR GRIFFITHS: All right. Is this a convenient time, Your Honour?
THE COURT: Yes. Twenty minutes.
--- The jury retires. 3:30 p.m.
--- Short adjournment.
----------------
--- Upon resuming.
--- The jury returns. 3:55 p.m.
THE COURT: Yes, go ahead, Mr Griffiths.
MR GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Dr Vrba, would you tell us whether or not there
was any distinctive odour at the Birkenau camp?
A. I was for fifteen months. After fifteen months,
if you are in a particular environment which has a
particular odour, you don't feel that odour. I
couldn't say that I felt a particular odour. Don't
forget that in front of each block there were ten,
fifteen, twenty dead bodies. Hygienic circumstances
were lacking from what we know as civilized hygienic
circumstances, and I, after a certain time, found the
environment as being adapted to it.
Q. All right. Did you have an opportunity to
observe -- can you tell us if the crematoria had any
smoke stacks?
A. Yes, it did. The crematoria worked in a peculiar pattern.
Q. Unless you were inside, you can't tell us what
goes on inside the crematoria.
A. Only what I can see from outside.
Q. Thank you. Go ahead.
A. From outside, when the transport was sort of
about twelve hours after the transport arrived, you
could hear a buzzing coming out from the crematoria,
and then smoke and flame came up from the chimney. The
flame looked approximately like when you here go
around Toronto and the burn of oil. I have seen
similar chimneys with fire on top of them.
Q. Like the refinery, is that what you mean?
A. Like refinery. Now, this lasted for some time --
perhaps an hour, perhaps two -- and attracted
attention; and as the flame became smaller, the smoke
became thicker and there was a thick smoke coming out
for some time, perhaps half an hour, perhaps an hour,
and then the smoke stopped being so thick and when you
look carefully at the chimney, then it would look
slight smoke coming out from the chimney, not very
different from a smoke which come out from an average
house, as far as I recollect.
Q. Have you ever gone by any different name than
Rudolf Vrba?
A. I have been going by several different names.
Q. When you were in Auschwitz did you have the name
Rudolf Vrba, or another name?
A. No. I have been born as Walter Rosenberg, and when the Germans made a quizzling [Quisling]
government in Czechoslovakia which obeyed their
orders and prized itself that Slovak racial laws are
stricter than in Germany, the law has been passed that
I must have a middle name, the middle name of Israel;
every Jew was called Israel as a middle name. If it
was a Jewess it was Sara. Consequently, I was
registered in concentration camp Auschwitz as Joseph
Israel Rosenberg, and under that name, as far as I
know, would have been issued the warrant against me
after I escaped. Consequently I never used that name
again, and when I arrived in Slovakia I started to use
the name Vrba for several reasons.
Q. And have you used that name ever since -- Rudolf
Vrba?
A. I use that name illegally to protect myself
against search until September 1944, when I entered
the Czechoslovak Army partisan units; but as all my
documents were burned in Maidanek, I couldn't show any
identity except a false document on the name of Rudolf
Vrba, and under that false document I have been
enlisted in the Czechoslovak Army which administration
insisted that anybody who enlists in the army must
have a document. "False document", they said,
"We can't see that it is false. It's all
right." So the Gestapo said also it's all right.
The document falsification was perfect.
However, when the War was over and I have been
discharged from the Army into normal civil life, I
hesitated to start civil life with a name which is not
legalized. Do you mind if I look into my things to
refresh my consideration?
Q. No. Is there a document you are looking for?
A. Yes. Consequently, when I was released from the
Army and my release papers were issued on Rudolf Vrba,
I have insisted that my original name, Walter
Rosenberg, should be included in my release papers,
and these are the release papers from the Army.
Q. I will come there. You stay up there.
A. Which were issued in May 1945.
Q. All right.
A. Together with description of my military
activities on behalf of my native countries.
Q. What language are your release papers in?
A. The release paper is in the Slovak language.
Q. And what name is given on this document?
A. This document says that it is issued to
"Rudolf Vrba (W. Rosenberg)".
Q. Do you have a photocopy of that?
A. I have a photocopy of that which I gave among
the papers, but this is an original.
MR GRIFFITHS: I hesitate to make the original an
exhibit. Perhaps I can get a photocopy tomorrow, Your
Honour.
Q. Dr Vrba, are you a member of any ---
A. Excuse me, I didn't answer your previous
question.
Q. Oh, I'm sorry.
A. Because the name was then legalized as Rudolf Vrba on ground of my request that, when
the Germans came to my native country ---
THE COURT: Just a moment.
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: It was legalized.
A. It was legalized after the War for the reasons I
asked for -- deGermanization of my name.
Q. DeGermaniation of your name.
A. Right. No connection with my so-called German
culture which I saw in Auschwitz.
Q. Exhibit 1, the pamphlet, "Did Six Million
Really Die?", page 16, Dr Vrba, Chapter 6,
entitled, "Auschwitz and Polish Jewry" ....
A. Yes.
Q. I am going to ask you a couple of questions
about that.
A. Yes.
Q. First of all, on page 17 there is a paragraph as
follows, and I will read it and then I will ask you to
comment on it.
A. Please.
Q. It's the second complete paragraph on the first
column of page 17.
A. Yes.
Q. "Although several millions were supposed to
have died at Auschwitz alone, Reitlinger has to admit
that only 363,000 inmates were registered at the camp
for the whole of the period between January 1940 and
February 1945 ...."
and cited as authority is the book, "The S.S.
Alibi of a Nation", page 268 and following --
" ....and by no means all of them were Jews.
It is frequently claimed that many prisoners were
never registered, but no one has offered any proof
of this. Even if there were as many unregistered as
there were registered, it would mean only a total of
750,000 prisoners -- hardly enough for the
elimination of 3 or 4 million. Moreover, large
numbers of the camp population were released or
transported elsewhere during the war, and at the end
80,000 were evacuated westward in January 1945
before the Russian advance."
Now, can you comment as to whether any people were
at Auschwitz who were not registered -- what you saw
with your own eyes?
A. All people who on the ramp arrive ---
MR CHRISTIE: Excuse me, Your Honour. This witness
can't answer for the camp. He can answer for records
he kept, and I think that he is being asked to answer
as to whether they were being registered in the camp,
and I never heard him say through his entire testimony
that he kept a register for the camp. He did for his
block, and I heard what he said about it, but I think
the question begs to tell us that he can say something
about the camp registry as a whole.
THE COURT: I don't disagree with Mr Christie's
objection. There is a point. It is your examination-in-chief, Mr Griffiths. You can either
lay more groundwork, if you feel that is advisable
....
MR GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
THE COURT: As it stands now, I do not disagree with
what I have heard from Mr Christie.
MR GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Did you ever see the people who you described
being brought to Birkenau in lorries registered?
A. Those who left the ramp in lorries -- and this
was seventy-five to ninety-five percent of arrivals,
depend on the transport -- went from the lorries into
the area of Krematoria IV and were not registered.
Q. Thank you.
A. Most of those people consisted of children which
were of ages one to twelve, or of old people which
were of ages over sixty, old women of ages over sixty,
and nobody has seen a prisoner of the age of eleven or
of the age of seventy in the concentration camp
Auschwitz.
Q. You can't say "anybody". Did you see
prisoners of those ages?
MR CHRISTIE: Well, he said "nobody", and
my friend shouldn't cross-examine his own witness. He
has elicited some hearsay and he shouldn't accept
anything other than what he got.
THE COURT: I agree. Go ahead, Mr Griffiths.
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: The next section of the pamphlet, it says, "Auschwitz: An
Eye-Witness Account":
"Some new facts about Auschwitz are at last
beginning to make a tentative appearance."
I am just reading from the pamphlet now, page 17,
column 2, under the bold title, "Auschwitz: An
Eye-Witness Account":
"Some new facts about Auschwitz are at last
beginning to make a tentative appearance. They are
contained in a recent work called Die AuschwitzLüge:
Ein Erlebnisbericht von Thies von Christopherson [Christophersen]
...."
And there is a translation. What does it say?
A. "The Auschwitz Legends: An Account of his
Experiences by Thies Christopherson, Kritik
Verlag/Mohrkirch, 1973".
Q. And that is the publisher?
A. Yes.
Q.
"Published by the German lawyer Dr Manfred
Roeder in the periodical Deutsche Bürger-Iniative,
it is an eye-witness account of Auschwitz by Thies
Christopherson, who was sent to the Bunawerk plant
laboratories at Auschwitz to research into the
production of synthetic rubber for the Kaiser
Wilhelm Institute. In May 1973, not long after the
appearance of this account, the veteran Jewish
'Nazi-
p. 1381
hunter' Simon Wiesenthal wrote to the Frankfurt
Chamber of Lawyers, demanding that the publisher and
author of the Forward, Dr Roeder, a member of the
Chamber, should be brought before its disciplinary
commission. Sure enough, proceedings began in July,
but not without harsh criticism even from the Press,
who asked 'Is Simon Wiesenthal the new
"Gauleiter of Germany?"'
And the source of that is -- can you read the
German for me?
A. Yes. "Deutsche Wochenzeitung, July 27th,
1973". This is German weekly, July 27, 1973.
Q. It goes on, then:
"Christopherson's account is certainly one
of the most important documents for a re-appraisal
of Auschwitz. He spent the whole of 1944 there,
during which time he visited all of the separate
camps comprising the large Auschwitz complex,
including Auschwitz-Birkenau where it is alleged
that wholesale massacres of Jews took place.
Christopherson, however, is in no doubt that this is
totally untrue. He writes: 'I was in Auschwitz from
.... the mass murders which were supposedly
perpetrated by the S.S. against the Jewish
prisoners, and I was perfectly astonished.
--- '"
MR CHRISTIE: You missed a line, I'm sorry.
MR GRIFFITHS:
"'I was in Auschwitz from January 1944 until
December 1944. After the war I heard about the mass
murders which were supposedly perpetrated by the
S.S. against the Jewish prisoners, and I was
perfectly astonished. Despite all the evidence of
witnesses, all the newspaper reports and radio
broadcasts I still do not believe today in these
horrible deeds. I have said this many times and in
many places, but to no purpose. One is never
believed.'"
The article goes on:
"Space forbids a detailed summary here of
the author's experiences at Auschwitz, which include
facts about camp routine and the daily life of
prisoners totally at variance with the allegations
of propaganda" --
and he cites pages 22 to 27 of the Christopherson
work.
"More important are his revelations about
the supposed existence of an extermination camp. 'During
the whole of my time at Auschwitz, I never observed
the slightest evidence of mass gassings. Moreover,
the odour of burning flesh that is often said to have hung
over the camp is a downright falsehood. In the
vicinity of the main camp (Auschwitz I) was a large
farrier's works, from which the smell of molten iron
was naturally not pleasant' ...." --
and he cites pages 33 to 34.
"Reitlinger confirms that there were five
blast furnaces and five collieries at Auschwitz,
which together with the Bunawerk factories comprised
Auschwitz III" --
ibid page 425 if [of] Reitlinger.
"The author agrees that a crematorium would
certainly have existed at Auschwitz, 'since 200,000
people lived there, and in every city with 200,000
inhabitants there would be a crematorium. Naturally
people died there -- but not only prisoners. In fact
the wife of Obersturmbannführer A. (Christopherson's
superior) also died there.'"
Page 33 of the Christopherson work was cited.
"The author explains: 'There were no secrets
at Auschwitz. In September 1944 a commission of the
International Red Cross came to the camp for an
inspection. They were particularly interested in the
camp at of burning flesh that is often said to have hung
over the camp is a downright falsehood. In the
vicinity of the main camp (Auschwitz I) was a large
farrier's works, from which the smell of molten iron
was naturally not pleasant' ...." --
And it cites Bunawerk section, page 35.
Now, how does that description of Auschwitz and
Birkenau, and bearing in mind that part of the time
that Mr Christopherson was writing about is after you
left the camp ....
A. Yes.
Q. Well, how does that square with your
recollection of the camp?
A. Well, when did he leave the camp?
Q. He was there, he said, I believe, from -- sorry.
A. He spent the whole of 1944 there.
THE COURT: January to December of 1944.
THE WITNESS: January to December 1944. Well, there
are certain people who claim ---
Q. MR GRIFFITHS: Just a minute. My question is, how
does this description square with your recollection of
the camp? Is this accurate in your view?
A. This is a complete lie.
Q. All right. Now, I have one other question that I
would like to refer you to, if I may.
A. The lie has got also something cynical about it.
It is a cynical lie.
Q. On page 24 of the exhibit, and this is under a
chapter titled, "The Nature & Condition of
War-Time Concentration Camps", and there is a
sub-heading that says, "Humane Conditions",
the paragraph begins:
"That several thousand camp inmates
did die in the chaotic final months of the war
brings us to the question of their wartime
conditions. These have been deliberately falsified
in innumerable books of an extremely lurid and
unpleasant kind. The Red Cross Report, examined
below, demonstrates conclusively that throughout the
war the camps were well administered. The working
inmates received a daily ration even throughout 1943
and 1944 of not less than 2,750 calories, which was
more than double the average civilian ration in
occupied Germany in the years after 1945. The
internees were under regular medical care, and those
who became seriously ill were transferred to
hospital."
Do those conditions described there correspond to
your recollection?
A. These are absolute lies. Moreover, he says about
something about the Red Cross report, which he doesn't
show. Where can I see the Red Cross Report?
Q. Don't worry about that. My question is just as
to the conditions that are described there.
A. Yes, this is a cynical lie in my opinion.
Q. Are you, Dr Vrba, part of any hoax or conspiracy
or fraud to deceive people as to the things th you have been telling us about, the conditions
in these camps, the deaths in these camps?
A. If I have any reason to deceive people?
Q. No. My question is whether you are -- are you a
part of any conspiracy to deceive people about what
went on in these camps?
A. No, I am not part of any conspiracy, and I am
not part of any political party, and I am not part of
any organized religion, of any church, and my only
affiliations, officially, are to universities in which
I worked for the last thirty years, which is
University of Prague, University of London, University
of Harvard and University of British Columbia; and I
had, during all those times, no affiliation to any
organization except academical organization.
MR GRIFFITH: Thank you, sir.
I have no further questions, Your Honour.
THE COURT: Members of the jury, the same
instructions that I have given will apply. Have a good
evening. Ten o'clock tomorrow morning.
--- The jury retires. 4:25 p.m.
--- The witness stands down.
--- Whereupon the hearing is adjourned to
January 23, 1985.
------------------------------
This is part 2 of the Testimony of Dr Rudolf Vrba, transcript of the 1985 Ernst Zündel trial in Toronto.
part 1
part
3