JANUARY 23, 1985 [Wednesday]
--- Upon the hearing resuming.
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GRIFFITHS continued:
THE
COURT: Is there anything before the jury comes in?
MR CHRISTIE: No, Your Honour.
--- The jury
enters. 10:07 a.m.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr
Christie.
RUDOLF VRBA, previously sworn
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR
CHRISTIE:
Q. Witness, will you
say it's true that you have told stories about
Auschwitz?
A. I didn't keep a secret of it.
Q. Would you say that all the things you've said
about Auschwitz are true?
A. I would think so,
within the frame of possibility of a reference.
Q. I now produce and show to you a book entitled
"I Cannot Forgive". Are you the author of this book?
A. I am a co-author.
Q. Did you check it
and see that all the contents were true?
A.
Which year has this book been published?
THE
COURT: Would you answer the question, please, sir?
Q. MR CHRISTIE: Could you answer the question?
A. Which year has the book been published?
THE COURT: Show him the book.
Q. MR CHRISTIE:
1964 March by Grove Press. It attributes the
authorship to you and to a Mr Alan Bestik [BESTIC].
Did you read that book?
A. Yes. Certainly. I
wrote the book.
Q. All the contents are true?
A. I wouldn't answer in a direct way to this
question, because this is a work of literature, and
not a document, and therefore I would like to make
certain remarks on the background of the book which
will make it more clear to you what the book is about.
Please don't interrupt me, because I cannot work
this way.
Q. Would you let me ask a question?
A. I didn't finish your previous question.
Q. Pardon me.
A. I did not yet finish your
previous question.
Q. Fine. Carry on.
A.
The background of that book started with my discussion
with a doctor who was examining judge in the Frankfurt
trial in which the criminals who committed the
horrible crimes in Auschwitz were tried, and I was
supposed to help him. He showed me eighty volumes of
material which he collected about the S.S. in
Auschwitz on his shelf, and he told me in a rather
exasperating voice, he said he has collected over
years eighty volumes and he still doesn't know the
full truth of Auschwitz.
I agreed with him and
I arrived at the conclusion that if he is right, I
would have to write not eighty, but at least
eighty-one volumes in order to give a picture of the
horrible crimes which were committed in Auschwitz, and
if I would write eighty-one volumes, it is very
unlikely that a person who is not specializing in this
field but needs the basic knowledge about his field
would be able to read eighty-one volumes. And I
arrived at the conclusion that it is necessary to
write one volume, and I used a special technique which
is used also in this Court, where in this Court is
forbidden to photograph. However, I have seen my
picture and the picture of His Honour the Judge
yesterday on the television. Anybody who looks at
those pictures will get some rough idea what was
happening in this Court, but neither I nor His Honour,
the Judge, would be in the position to cut out from
that picture his picture, his face, and use it instead
of a passport photograph.
Consequently, what is
in the book is a condensed story written in a style
which should enable especially a young person,
untrained and unprepared for the horror of this
century, without too much trouble, to understand to
what lowness some parts of mankind as represented by
the Nazis were able to descend.
Therefore that
book should not be considered as a document, but as an
artistic picture of the events which has got not more
value than the artistic picture of the artist who is
here now painting or drawing this courtroom to show to
the masses of people who cannot come here to give them
some idea what was happening here. And this is
approximately my answer in print to explain you this
book.
There were, after this book was published,
a number of essays published about the book, and I
have a number of that, perhaps a hundred, two hundred,
like Times Literary Supplement, like the New York
Times and the Book of the Month, etcetera, etcetera,
which were published, and the various messages which
were contained were discussed.
However, it is
understood that it is only an attempt for an artistic
depiction of those catastrophic events, and the
discussion of the book would therefore belong into the
realm of a literary afternoon, which I am perfectly
prepared to spend with you, Mr Counsel.
Q. I
can see that.
A. But ---
THE COURT: Dr
Vrba, this is not speech-making time. You have been
given a lot of latitude. Is your answer going to go on
for much longer?
THE WITNESS: No. I need two
more minutes, Your Honour.
THE COURT: All right.
Then do it and get on with the next question.
THE WITNESS: I have been called in as an expert
witness not on literature, because I am neither good
as Dostoevsky, or Tolstoy, but I am layman in
literatu. However, I am acquainted with events in
Auschwitz which took place there from 30 June, 1942,
until 7 April 1944, and those events I am prepared to
discuss with you not on the level of a literary essay,
but within the frame of the law.
Should you
wish to discuss a book, in spite of my advice, it
would be very difficult to discuss the book in front
of the jury who didn't read the book. Under the
condition that the jury is prepared to read the book,
we can then discuss the book so that the jury knows
what we are talking about, and I am protected from
distortions which your friend have published about
this book.
Thank you, Your Honour, for giving
me the opportunity to explain it.
THE COURT: Go
ahead, Mr Christie.
Q. MR CHRISTIE: Are there
falsehoods in the book?
A. As I explained to
you and gave you answer to your question, you are only
re-formulating the question. The book is an attempt,
artistic attempt to create truths, and an artistic
attempt is subject to shortcomings. And you say that
the shortcoming is a falsehood. I would say that there
might be shortcomings in the book. I would say that
certainly there are shortcomings in the book for which
I had limited time to write, but I wouldn't say that
there are falsehood, and I would demonstrate it to --
prepared to discuss this book in this courtroom.
Q. Did you say things happened in the book that
did not actually happen in
A. I am not aware of
that.
Q. Did you say things that you say that
you saw in the book that you did not actually see?
A. The book is not a court case, and therefore in
the book could be incorporated such parts of knowledge
which are obtained from friends to whom I trusted.
As you know, every art piece in literature is
written by people who use not only their own eye
witness abilities, but draw also on experience of
others for one reason or another.
Q. Did you
put in the book statements that you said you saw which
you did not see?
A. I am not aware of that.
Q. So do I take it from your answer that when you
say you saw something in the book, you actually did
see it?
A. I will discuss with you the book on
the literary afternoon at your disposal. At the moment
I am not prepared to discuss this book unless the book
has been read by the jury.
Q. Well, I think
with respect, unless I am wrong, unless His Honour
directs you not to answer the question, I am entitled
to ask you, and I did ask you whether you said things
in the book that you said you saw, things in the book
that you did not see. Now, is that the case or not?
THE COURT: Members of the jury, you will excuse us
please.
--- The jury retires. 10:20 a.m.
THE COURT: Dr Vrba, I am going to say this once
and only once. You are here as a compellable witness.
You are here to testify as a witness under oath. You
are not here to give orders as to what this jury will
do and what you will do or not do. You will answer
counsel's questions unless I tell you not to. Do you
understand?
THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
THE COURT: You will do it.
THE WITNESS:
Thank you very much. In that case, can I ask your
permission, if I find the question unsuitable, if I
should, can I take your advice?
THE COURT: If
you find them unsuitable, you can say so. Hopefully
you will say that shortly. I don't propose that Mr
Christie's cross-examination is going to be
interrupted by you taking a multitude of objections to
his questions, however objectionable you may find
those questions to be.
In a democratic country
you should know by now, and I am sure that you do,
that in a Court of law an accused person, regardless
of who he or she is, is entitled to full answer and
defence. That includes the right of cross-examination.
Your evidence is tested in that way before the triers
of fact, which is the jury.
If you take
objection I will listen to objection; if it contains
merit I will say so; if it does not, I will say so. I
do not want Mr Christie's cross-examination, however,
to be interrupted for no reason at all.
Do you
understand?
THE WITNESS: Perfectly w
THE
COURT: Thank you. Bring back the jury.
THE
WITNESS: May I ask a question, Your Honour, before the
jury comes in?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE
WITNESS: Quotations from a book tore out from its
general context may create a false impression.
THE COURT: I don't deny that.
THE WITNESS: And
may be used for distortions.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Such distortions have been used from
this book and I have turned attention of the Crown
that there are distortions on even the subject of
study of some respectable Professors of History in
University.
THE COURT: No one is restricting
your answers to counsel's questions, providing they
are relative and responsive to the question that is
put.
THE WITNESS: Wouldn't it be, of course, to
the advantage of the procedure, Your Honour, if the
jury, who finally is supposed to say yes or no to the
guilt of the accused, would be acquainted with the
content of the book and not with particular pieces
torn out from them which would suit the defence?
In other words, the danger of distorting a work by
showing only a part of the work is considerable, in my
opinion, especially knowing the tactic of a certain
political group, and therefore I am worried that the
jury might be easily, in the mind of the jury, easily
create a wrong impression and might be misled from the
right path of justice if the jury is being served
juicy bits from the whole instead of being acquainted
with the book as a whole. It is just like they would
show to the jury a picture, but only a small part left,
a small part right, instead of showing the whole
picture. The book is only 250 pages long, and as far
as I know, it took nobody more than one day to read
it.
THE COURT: I repeat only what I said, that
you are not being told what answers you may give to
counsel's questions will be, provided that they are
responsive to the questions.
Bring back the
jury.
---The jury enters. 10:25 a.m.
THE
COURT: Proceed, Mr Christie.
MR CHRISTIE: Thank
you, sir.
Q. I would just like to ask you if
this part of the book is true. It's attributed, on
page two, to your co-author, Alan Bestic, and it says---
THE COURT: Page ....
MR CHRISTIE: Sorry.
Page 2.
Q. It says:
"I would like to pay
tribute to him ..."
and that was you, sir,
wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. "....for the
immense trouble he took over every detail; for the
meticulous, almost fanatical respect he revealed for
accuracy; and for the courage which this cold-blooded
survey of two ghastly years demanded."
Have I
read correctly, sir, from that?
A. Yes, you
did.
Q. Would you say that was true for the
degree of respect you had for accuracy?
A. That
was true for Alan Bestic who estimated my accuracy in
his own personal way. You may question now Alan Bestic
if my accuracy could stand up to your requirement or
not.
Q. Well, would you say that in your
opinion that was true about your respect for accuracy?
A. Out of modesty, would you kindly allow me not
to make judgments about myself?
Q. Okay. In
things that you said in this book that you said you
saw, were you telling the truth?
A. To the best
of my knowledge, ability, the truth as I could
perceive it, being in Auschwitz for two years.
Q. So when you said you perceived things, or saw
things in this book, you actually did see them with
your own observations.
A. This is nowhere
stated in the book that I actually saw them. In the
book there are a number of things which I heard from
my friend and I have included it in the book, because
a book was not meant to be a testimony to the Court
which I have to sing [sign], but impressions which I
collected from number of friends, some of whom are
dead, for whom I wanted the voice to be heard even
after their martyr's death.
Q. I'm sorry, I
still don't understand but do you mean to say, for
example on page 10 where you say:
"This time I
was glad to see him arrive", for example, and I will
read the rest of it, if you wish do you mean that you
actually did see this?
A. I see arrive what?
Q. Well, here is what you said in the book.
A. Yes.
Q. "Heinrich Himmler visited
Auschwitz Camp again in January, 1943. This time I was
glad to see him arrive".
A. Yes.
Q. Now,
I can read the whole thing, or two pages, or ten
pages.
A. Yes, continue, because I don't know
what it should mean.
Q. You don't know. You
don't know.
A. No.
Q. I will ask you, do
you mean to say, when you saw him arrive in January
'43, or is this just ---
A. In September '43 or
in January '43?
Q. Well, the book says January
'43.
A. No. I saw him arrive in July 1943
[1942--p. 1398--], and then at one occasion in 1943
---
Q. It says here, "January '43".
A.
It must be an error.
Q. It's an error?
A. Yes.
Q. Oh. But you did see him arrive on
this occasion?
A. On the first occasion I saw
him arrive, because he was approximately in the
vicinity as you are to me.
Q. He was as close
to you as I am.
A. Approximately.
Q. I
see. And you were ---
A. He took one step
further out of politeness to me.
Q. I see.
A. However, on the second occasion, I saw him
going by in a car which was the same car I saw before.
He used a black Mercedes with all the sycophants
around that he carried around, but I saw him only for
a distance of about six hundred yards, and I have
heard it is him; but he didn't, on this occasion, come
to shake hands with me and introduce himself. So it
might be him; it might be someone who stood in instead
of him, and don't think that it makes a great
difference.
Q. Was this the occasion when he
was as far from you as I am?
A. No. That's the
second occasion. The second occasion when he was as
far from me as you are, almost as far, this was in
July 1942.
Q. '42.
A. Yes.
Q. And
that was in Auschwitz camp?
A. That was in
Auschwitz camp I.
Q. In your book you say:
"Heinrich Himmler visited Auschwitz camp again in
January 1943. This time I was glad to see him arrive."
Right?
A. Probably I wasn't glad of him seeing
him arrive as my best friend. Read on in the book. I
cannot remember now why I should be glad to see him
here. Maybe I said it tongue-in-cheek, where I have a
right to say it in the book; not in the Court, but in
the book I can.
Q. Would you tell the public
something in the book that wasn't true?
A. I
would say in the public in a way when the truth is
complicated, I would use the technique of the painter,
which is here working, that the general impression
should come as close as possible to the truth within
the requirements of my abilities which are, of course,
limited.
Q. As Dostoevsky or Shakespeare, yes,
I understand. You don't ---
A. I said I don't
have.
Q. All right. I will ask you some more
questions. I will read you pages ten, 11 and 12 and I
will ask you some questions about that.
A. And
you are not going to miss some paragraphs?
Q.
Well, you watch me and see that I don't.
A. Can
we have a copy of the book?
Q. I am producing
for you, provided by the Crown, a hardcover copy. I
hope it is the same as mine.
A. I hope so, too.
Q. Well, I have another copy. Do you recognize that as the paperback version of
your book; do you?
A. Yes. It was published
without my permission and without my perusal.
Q. So it's without your permission and your perusal?
A. That's right. You see, I would have to sue the
people who done it, and I couldn't afford to sue; but
for this book I peruse. This is the first edition.
Q. So you figure this one could be false, then
somebody might have twisted your words around?
A. I didn't have any influence on it, and I didn't see
the proof of the book, and I didn't see the account
for it, either, for your private information.
Q. You've never read it?
A. I would say no.
Q. You would say no.
A. No. But I read the
original.
Q. What do you mean? You haven't read
---
A. This is the first edition. You see, I
have never signed any contract with the publisher of
this paperback.
Q. This Grove Press edition
published March 1964, copywright by Rudolf Vrba and
Alan Bestic, this is not yours?
A. This is not
Grove edition.
Q. This is published by Bantam
Books.
A. That's right.
Q. So you say this is a pirated edition, do you?
A. I didn't use those words. They are your words.
Q. Let's find the part in your edition, then, so
in case it is different we can see how it's different.
I am going to have to give this book to someone to
look at while I cross-examine.
A. Good advice.
Q. Well, I will ask you specifically questions of
fact which you can tell me if these statements are
true or not.
Do you believe that Heinrich
Himmler visited the camp in January '42 ['43]? Okay,
now I think I found the spot where I wanted to begin.
I am going to read and you read along with me. Make
sure I don't make any mistakes. I am going to read
two, almost three pages okay? and I am going to ask
you some questions about it.
A. Yes.
Q.
"Heinrich Himmler visited Auschwitz Camp again in
January 1943". Is that the same in your book?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.
A. If there is a
difference I will turn your attention to it.
Q.
All right. Thank you very much.
"This time I
was glad to see him arrive, though not because I still
nursed any faint hope that he would improve our lot
through benevolence or any sense of justice. His
presence was welcome to us all
merely because it meant that for one day there would
be no unscheduled beatings or killings.
"Once
more we were lined up, spic and span, with the sick in
---"
A. Excuse me, please. Would you read it in
a way that everybody can understand the sense of the
sentence?
Q. I'll try, sir. Okay. If anybody
doesn't understand the sense of the sentences in the
jury, please hold up your hand and I will stop. Okay?
And if you find that I am not reading sensibly, you
will tell me too, won't you?
A. Yes.
Q.
Thank you. Okay.
"Once more we were lined up,
spic and span, with the sick in the rear and the
healthy well to the front. Once more the band played
and the heels clicked and the jack boots danced in the
luster shed by the master. Once more he inspected the
camp inch by inch running a podgy pedantic finger over
the mantlepiece of Auschwitz and examining it for dust.
And this time there was no Yankel Meisel to drop his
tiny personal grain of sand into the smooth machinery.
"Though he conducted his tour of the camp with his
usual thoroughness, it was, however, no more than an
aperitif for the meal that was to follow. The main
purpose of his visit was to see for himself the bricks
and mortar which had sprung from the plans he had
outlined in Auschwitz seven months earlier.
"He
was to watch the world's first conveyor belt killing,
the inauguration of Kommandant
Hoess' brand new toy, his crematorium. It was truly a
splendid affair, one hundred yards long and fifty
yards wide, containing fifteen ovens which could burn
three bodies each simultaneously in twenty minutes, a
monument in concrete, indeed, to its builder Herr
Walter Dejaco."
Am I reading correctly?
A. Quite right.
Q. "Auschwitz survivors who,
like myself, were the slave labourers who built it
---"
A. "Who worked to build it".
Q. Yes.
".... who worked to build it , ...." Sorry, I made a
mistake. ".... may be interested to learn,
incidentally, that Herr Dejaco still practises his
craft in Reutte, a town in the Austrian Tyrol. In 1963
he won praise from Bishop Rusk of Innsbruck for the
fine new presbytery he had built for Reutte's parish
priest.
"In 1943, however, there was a war on
and he was concerned with more practical
demonstrations of his skill. The extermination
industry was still in its infancy, but thanks to his
efficiency, it was about to make its first really
dramatic stride towards greatness that morning when
Himmler came to visit us.
"He certainly saw an
impressive demonstration, marred only by a timetable
that would have caused concern in many a small German
railway station. Kommandant Hoess, anxious to display
his new toy at its most efficient, had arranged for a
special transport of 3,000 Polish Jews to be present
for slaughter in a modern, German way.
"Himmler
arrived at eight o'clock that
morning and the show was to start an hour later. By
eight forty-five, the new gas chambers with their
clever dummy showers and their notice 'Keep Clean',
'Keep Quiet' and so on, were packed to capacity. The
S.S. Guards, indeed, had made sure that not an inch of
space would be wasted by firing a few shots at the
entrance. These encouraged those already inside to
press away from the doors and more victims were
ushered in. Then babies and very small children were
tossed on to the heads of the adults and the doors
were closed and sealed.
"An S.S. man, wearing a
heavy service gas mask, stood on the roof of the
chamber, waiting to drop the Zyklon-B pellets which
released a hydrogen cyanide gas. His was a position of
honour that day, for seldom would he have had such a
distinguished audience and he probably felt as tense
as the starter of the Derby.
"By eight
fifty-five, the tension was almost unbearable. The man
in the mask was fidgeting with his boxes of pellets.
He had a fine full house beneath him. But there was no
sign of the Reichsfuhrer who had gone off to have
breakfast with Kommandant Hoess.
"Somewhere a
phone rang. Every head turned towards it. A junior
N.C.O. clattered over to the officer in charge of the
operation, saluted hastily and panted out a message.
The officer's face stiffened, but he said not a word.
"The message was: 'The Reichsfuhrer hasn't
finished his breakfast yet.'
["] Everyone
relaxed slightly. Then another phone call. Another
dash by a perspiring N.C.O. Another message. The
officer in charge swore to himself and muttered to those of equal rank around him.
"The Reichsfuhrer, it seemed, was still at
breakfast. The S.S. man on the roof of the gas chamber
squatted on his haunches. Inside the chamber itself
frantic men and women, who knew by that time what a
shower in Auschwitz meant, began shouting, screaming
and pounding weakly on the door; but nobody outside
heard them because the new chamber was sound-proof as
well as gas-proof.
"Even if they had been heard,
nobody would have taken any notice of them, for the
S.S. had their own worries. The morning dragged on and
the messengers came and went. By ten o'clock the
marathon breakfast was still under way. By half past
ten the S.S. men had become almost immune to false
alarms and the man on the roof remained on his
haunches even when the distant telephone rang.
"But by eleven o'clock, just two hours later, a car
drew up. Himmler and Hoess got out and chatted for a
while to the senior officers present. Himmler listened
intently, as they explained the procedure to him in
detail. He ambled over to the sealed door, glanced
casually through the small, thick observation window
at the squirming bodies inside, then returned to fire
some more questions at his underlings.
"At
last, however, everything was ready for action. A
sharp command was given to the S.S. man on the roof.
He opened a circular lid and dropped the pellets
quickly on to the heads below him. He knew, everyone
knew, that the heat of those packed bodies would cause
these pellets to release their gasses in a few minutes,
and so he closed the lid quickly.
"The gassing had begun. Everything waited for a
while so that the poison would have circulated
properly, Hoess courteously invited his guest to have
another peep through the observation window. For some
minutes Himmler peered into the death chamber,
obviously impressed, and then turned with new interest
to his Kommandant with a fresh batch of questions.
"What he had seen seemed to have satisfied him and
put him in good humour. Though he rarely smoked, he
accepted a cigarette from an officer, and as he puffed
at it rather clumsily, he laughed and joked.
"The introduction of this more homely atmosphere, of
course, did not mean any neglect of the essential
business. Several times he left the group of officers
to watch progress through the peep hole; and, when
everyone inside was dead, he took a keen interest in
the procedure that followed.
"Special lifts
took the bodies to the crematorium, but the burning
did not follow immediately. Gold teeth had to be
removed. Hair, which was used to make the warheads of
torpodeos [torpedoes] watertight, had to be cut from
the heads of the women. The bodies of wealthy Jews,
noted early for their potential had to be set aside
for dissection in case any of them had been cunning
enough to conceal jewellery diamonds perhaps about
their person."
I will stop there.
A.
Well, it is only very little ---
Q. --- to the
end? I will read to the end.
A. I will
appreciate it.
Q. Sure. Certainly:
"It
was indeed, a complicated business, but the new
machinery worked smoothly under the hands of skilled
operators. Himmler waited until the smoke began to
thicken over the chimneys and then he glanced at his
watch.
"It was one o'clock. Lunch time, in fact.
He shook hands with the senior officers, returned the
salutes of the lower ranks casually and cheerfully and
climbed back into the car with Hoess.
"Auschwitz was in business. And on a scale that would
have made little old Yankel Meisel shake his head in
wonder and disbelief. He had never been a very
ambitious man and the thought of streamlined
mass-destruction would have been quite beyond his
simple mind.
"But then he had never heard of
the Final Solution, let alone of the part which
Auschwitz was to play in it."
Now, have I read
correctly from the point where I ended?
A. Yes,
you did.
Q. All right. And that is a statement.
Do you say that that was the true statement?
A. I would say that it was as true as true is the
picture which is depicted by the artist in this room.
Q. Okay.
A. This means ---
Q. Never
mind what it means.
A. You asked me one
question, if you will allow me to finish my answer.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. This means it conveyed
truthfully the atmosphere existing in Auschwitz during
the gassing procedure in the presence of a very highly
positioned VIP.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. What was missing for the
explanation and which distorts the sense of your
carefully selected passage is that in your passage,
twice the name of Yankel Meisel has been mentioned,
and because the listeners do not know who that Yankel
Meisel actually is, but that Yankel Meisel is named in
the same chapter, some confusion might arise from your
whole reading, or so it conveyed reasonably well as
far as possible for a second-grade artist to describe
the atmosphere which existed during the gassing of
those unfortunate victims.
Q. Right. Okay. Now,
you used an anology by saying that the artist in
Court, drawing his picture, was in the same way you
were writing this article.
A. About. Otherwise
---
Q. Yeah. Okay.
A. Otherwise I would
have to be in the position of the Judges in Frankfurt
who had to write eighty books in order not to be in
the position of the artist; but to be in the legal
position where he can stand up behind every word of
the eighty books.
Q. Let's not worry about some
judge in Frankfurt. You used the analogy of the artist
in Court, and I put it to you that the artist has seen
a real man in a real stand namely, you. Right?
A. Right.
Q. And you are telling this Court you
actually saw Heinrich Himmler peeping through the
doors of the gas chamber; you told us that?
A.
No, I didn't say I was present when he was peeping
through the gas chamber, but I have put together a
story which I've heard many times from various people
who were there present and who related it to me. What
I could see was the following, that a transport of
eight thousand Jews from Krakow on that occasion ---
Q. Eight thousand, eh? You counted them?
A. By
knowledge of the trucks, as I explained to you
yesterday, and by knowledge of the number of wagons
which arrived to Auschwitz, we knew reasonably well
how many of the victims arrived on that day.
Q.
Where does it say that there were eight thousand Jews
arrived that day in your book?
A. Well, if it
doesn't say, I remember it.
Q. Ah.
A.
But I do not say that I have written in the book all I
remember, because if I would have write in the book
all I remember, I would have had to write all those
eighty-one books.
Q. Well, what I am asking is
about this specific incident that you described in
your book.
A. Yes.
Q. You describe it as
saying, "This time I was glad to see him arrive", and
then you go on and tell us what you say happened.
A. Yes.
Q. Well, I put it to you, you were what
eighteen or nineteen years old?
A. At that time
it was in '43. I was nineteen years old.
Q.
Well, do you tell us that you are standing between
Heinrich Himmler and Hoess and hearing their
conversation and looking with them or somewhere in the
area where they were looking onto a gas chamber? Is
that what you are telling me?
A. No. I am telling you that they were looking
into the gas chamber, that there were a number of
Sonderkommando present, that there were a number of
S.S. present.
Q. Were you present?
A. No.
I was in the quarantine camp at that time and I spoke
with a number of them and listened to them, and I knew
that those unfortunate victims were being gassed with
a great delay because the VIPs didn't come, so they
were being kept in the gas chamber.
Q. Well, in
your book you indicate that you saw, and you don't
indicate that you heard from other people the story
that you related.
A. In this particular case
the story is related.
Q. And you say that these
things happened as you described, even though you
acknowledged they were on the basis of hearsay; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. The quarantine camp you
described now, if I may, looking at Exhibit "H" for
identification, would you agree that's a map of the
camp?
A. What about we project the map so the
jury can see?
Q. Well, I can hold it.
A.
Well, I have the same map and we can just project it.
Q. Well, all right. If you have the same map, let me
do it my way just for once. Okay?
A. You be my
guest. But just make it in such a way that the jury
sees what you are trying here to do. This may be an
exhibit.
Q. Well, let's just be -- as long as
we can be satisfied that we are not misrepresenting
the camp, can we do that?
A. I would prefer if
the jury is trying to see exactly what you are trying
to say.
THE COURT: Doctor, you will find that
when the cross-examination is concluded, counsel for
the Crown, if he chooses to do so, will re-examine you.
You will please answer the questions as Mr Christie
puts them to you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you for
being enlightened on that point. Go ahead, Mr
Christie.
MR CHRISTIE: I have showed you Exhibit "H" for
identification. I ask you if that isn't the case that
it is the same map that you presented earlier.
A. Yes. It suffices for its purposes.
Q. It's
bigger.
A. Yes.
Q. The quarantine camp
was BIIA. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you are talking about an area of KII, Krema
II. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. This is where you
say this happened?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you
ever go in the area of KII?
A. In the area of
KII, I could watch from Block 27.
Q. Yes.
A. But if you take notice, Mr Counsel, the date
was January 1943; but yesterday, if you would have
listened what was going on in this court, you would
have taken notice, in your notes, that I was in
quarantine camp only after June 8th, 1943; therefore I
could not observe it from the quarantine camp but from
the mortuary of Fred Wetzler from where I later
escaped, and this was distance of fifty yards from the
crematorium January '43.
Q. Well, didn't you
just tell me a few minutes ago that when this event
with Himmler happened you were in the quarantine camp?
I though I heard you say that.
A. Well, once I
realize that it was in January, I realize that I have
seen it from here.
Q. Oh. So when you found out
the date in the book you decided that you saw it from
Block 27.
A. That's right. But I don't say in
the book from where I see it, did I? You tried to
impute to me that I have seen it somewhere. You impute
it to me that I have seen it from the quarantine camp.
I did write about it in the book.
Q. No, but
you said, "I saw", in the book, and I got the
impression that you are describing firsthand
observation.
A. What I saw from the book, if
you allow me to explain to you if it is of interest to
you you can stop me if it is of no interest ---
Q. I wouldn't ask you if it wasn't of interest.
A. If it was of interest for you, is that I saw part
of the procedure, obviously from the mortuary, which
is April '43.
Q. Maybe we can show it to the
jury. Block 27 is there?
A. Yes.
Q. And
the quarantine camp is there?
A. Yes. And it was empty in January 1943. There
was nobody.
Q. Thank you very much.
A.
So I could see it only from Wetzler's mortuary, and I
didn't write in the book from where I saw it.
Q. No, you didn't; that's right.
A. But you
tried to impute that I saw it from ---
THE
COURT: All right. Next question, please.
Q. MR
CHRISTIE: Now, I just want to ask you a couple more
questions about this aspect of the story. Are you
saying that you saw Heinrich Himmler peer through a
window and hear him have a conversation, or is that
just what you heard from other people?
A. That
I heard from other people.
Q. And you agree with me that in the part that I
read to you, it certainly doesn't indicate that this
is information received. It puts it in the first
person as it you are standing right there, doesn't it?
A. No. Where is it written that it is in the first
person?
Q. When you say, when I read to you, "This
time I was glad to see him arrive, though not because
I still nursed any faint hope ...."; and then you go
on to describe the situation without reference to any
information received.
A. Well, the word, "I was
glad to see him" refers to my naiveté of that time
when I still thought that the horrible murders in
Auschwitz are being done behind the knowledge of the
leading Nazis.
Q. Thank you.
A. And
therefore I thought that if he will see those murders,
and that's why I was indicating "glad", that if he
will see those murders, then he will see here
something illegally is happening behind the back of
the highest officials of the German Government. That
is why I was glad to see him. That is what it refers
to. And I was disappointed when I have heard that on
the same day as gassing under exceptionally brutal
conditions took place, and that he expressed, as I
could hear by the grapevine in the camp, his full
satisfaction of it, and that the gassing went on with
even greater intensity after he left. And that is what
his message tried to convey.
Q. So you had hoped at this stage that he was
going to stop it; was that your hope?
A.
Because the crimes which we were seeing was so outside
any human imagination, we still have hoped, or had
hoped quite naively, quite inexperiencedly, I admit,
but we had hoped that Auschwitz was run by beings like
Hoess, underworld types in military uniform who are
murdering en masse behind the back of the high German,
highly positioned German Government.
Therefore
the visit of someone so close to the German Government
enveigled in us false hopes. You know, when people are
in horrible situations, they are apt to have false
hopes, false hopes that when those highly-positioned
people come and see the horrors of Auschwitz, they
will see that it is incompatible with the cultural
history of a civilization like Germany and will stop
it. That is why I said I was glad that he came.
Q. Well, immediately after you say, "This time I
was glad to see him arrive", you say, "though not
because I still nursed any faint hope that he would
improve our lot through benevolence or any sense of
justice."
Are those your words?
A. This
refers, of course, to beating.
Q. I see. Not to
the gassing.
A. Not to the gassing.
Q.
Okay. So all the account there is hearsay, but it
isn't put as such; right?
A. Well, it is
referred to the beating, because the beating, I didn't
hope any improvement because it was known to us that
beating and torturing of individual prisoners in
Sachsenhausen, in Mauthausen, in Dachau, in
Buchenwald, Ravensbruck, in Flossen, was a very well-known
and accepted method by which the leadership of the
Nazis knew. In Auschwitz took something different,
mass gassings, and therefore we expected or thought
that mass murder, especially against children and old
women and pregnant women on such a scale, might
possibly be done by depraved fanatics behind the back
of the German government.
Q. Had you, at that time, knowledge of all these
things about those other concentration camps?
A. Very good knowledge.
Q. So there must have
been knowledge coming in and out of all the various
concentration camps.
A. Yes. Before I came to
the concentration camps of Auschwitz there were a
number of books published by German refugees who have
seen various concentration camps like Dachau.
For example, Bruno Bethlehem [Bettelheim] from
Chicago, who was in Dachau in '33, '34, and then was
released and came to America and wrote a book about it,
such books were in general knowledge in Czechoslovakia
even before the Germans, the Nazis, occupied our
native country.
Consequently, we were pretty
well informed that beating and torture of prisoners in
German concentration camps takes place on a great
scale. Braun Buch, which translated means Brown Book,
and it doesn't relate to Lichtenstein, it relates to a
number of survivors of German concentration camps who
published a great amount of material in 1933, 1939,
and I was reading that materials, and therefore knew
that this is common in German concentration camps. But
there was nothing yet about gas chambers.
Furthermore, in Auschwitz there were a number of
prisoners from those concentration camps who were
transferred to concentration camp Auschwitz.
I,
myself, was not in Auschwitz -- this was not my first
concentration camp. I came from Maidenek. Consequently,
we were informed, in Auschwitz, about events in other
concentration camps. We knew that in other
concentration camps torture of prisoners takes place
and irregular beatings, but we knew, as far as we
could see, that mass gassings of completely innocent
and unregistered people takes place only in Auschwitz.
Q. I see. Is that all you want to say on that?
A. If that is satisfactory for you for a literary
discussion about my modest product, yes, unless you
have more questions.
Q. Oh, I do. Are you
familiar with the Calendarium of Auschwitz?
A.
I know that such a Calendarium exists, but I have
never seen one.
Q. Records the events of the
camp.
A. Yes, it was used. I have seen it in
court in Frankfurt where the Chief Judge, presiding
judge, Dr Hofbauer, showed it and ---
THE
COURT: Just a moment, Doctor. Go on to the next
question.
MR CHRISTIE: Thank you.
Q. Is this a record of your escape on the 7th of
April, 1944?
A. Austenlager [Auss--] ---
THE COURT: Doctor, this is a trial in the English
language. Would you please look at it and then answer
counsel's questions?
THE WITNESS: Right. Would
you formulate your question kindly once more?
MR CHRISTIE: Is that your account of the escape or the
escape from Auschwitz that you claim you undertook?
A. Here is one paragraph called Paragraph 7.4, in
which it is in two and a half ---
Q. Just
listen to the question. Okay? Is that the account or a
record of an escape on the 7th of April involving
Alfred Wetzler and Walter Rosenberg?
A. Here is
nothing about April 7.
Q. Well, four seven is
the seventh day of the fourth month, isn't it?
A. No. 4407 is the number which is tattooed.
Q.
No. 7.4.
A. Oh, this is a date.
Q.
Seventh day, fourth month?
A. There is no year
written.
Q. Go back further and you will see
that it is 1944. Look at the book. Here we go. Can you
see yourself that that pertains to 1944?
A.
Published in 1964 by the Museum in Poland.
Q.
Yes. The Auschwitz Museum, right?
A. Right.
Q. Now, did you want to see
yourself that that is for the year 1944?
A. I
believe you.
Q. You believe me? All right.
A. With this document in your hands I believe you.
Q. All right. Let's turn back to where we had your
date on the 7th of April.
A. Yes.
Q.
Does this not report the escape of an Alfred Wetzler
and Walter Rosenberg?
A. That is perfectly
right.
Q. That is what it says occurred on that
date?
A. Yes. And it also records our numbers
tattooed on our hand.
Q. On your hand, eh?
A. Yeah.
Q. Which hand?
A. On the
left hand.
Q. So that's when you say that your
escape occurred; is that right?
A. On 7 April,
1944. Start of the escape.
Q. Did you say also
that when you left, Kanada had not been established in
Birkenau?
A. To the best of my knowledge, no,
but Kanada was stationed in Birkenau for the night. In
other words, they lived in the barracks in the night
in Birkenau since 15 January, 1943.
Q. I am now
going to show you the Calendarium for 1943. Are you
satisfied that's the Calendarium for 1943?
A.
Yes.
Q. The first half of the year.
A.
Yes.
Q. I am going to read it to you in English
and I am going to put it to you that that is what that
says in English, and I am going to ask you if I have
provided you with the correct translation.
A.
Mm-hmmm.
Q. It says: 14th day, 12th month,
1943, in Birkenau, the finished the section "BII", the
construction of the storage buildings which was called
by the inmates Kanada. In the storage buildings there
have been thirty-five barracks. In thirty of them the
belonging[s] of Jews were stored and selected. In two
barracks inmates did live which did care for the store.
In the rest of the buildings the administration was
located.
Have I read that translation correctly?
A.
I understand correctly now the German text. Would you
now read me the translation?
Q. All right: in
Birkenau they finished building the section "BII", the
construction of the storage section which was called
by the inmates Kanada. In the storage buildings there
have been thirty-five barracks. In thirty of them the
belongings of Jews was stored and selected. In two
barracks inmates did live which did care for the store.
In the rest of the buildings the administration was
located.
Have I read it correctly, sir?
A. That's right.
Q. All right. That indicates
that on the 14th of December, 1943, the area called
Kanada was finished, and you said that it wasn't
finished before you left.
A. To my recollection
it wasn't finished before I left. So, also to my
recollection, Kanada command which I saw frequently on
the street in section "BIID", they were there as
usually, but I was away from that command for a long
time, and that command was from that time on of
smaller interest to me.
Now, if this particular
thing refers to finishment of plans or to finishment
of barracks or to actual transport of the prisoners
into those barracks, this is a question.
I am
not quite sure, with all respect to Polish researchers,
if their records are better than my memory.
Q.
Mm-hmmm. Would you say, sir, that you told us
yesterday about burning pits?
A. Yes.
Q.
Would you say that yesterday you told us there were
pits that were six meters wide, six meters long and
six meters deep?
A. I also made the remark that
I didn't make a measurement with a tape, but it was my
judgment of that measures.
Q. You gave us an example by referring to the panels
on the wall, and you pointed up to, I think, the top
of the first panel; didn't you?
A. Yes, that
would be it.
Q. Mm-hmmm. Well, how do you
explain the method by which the Germans could burn
bodies under water in this marshy ground where the
water level was about -- well, you described it as
marshy ground. Tell us how they did that.
A.
Well, they didn't invite me for technical
consultations. And if you accept that I'm not speaking
only as a witness, I saw only when it was finished;
but if you want my technical advice, I would think,
without having seen how they have done it and without
me having consulted how they have done it, that I
could have do it myself given three, four hundred
slave labourers. There's no problem.
Q. Well,
tell me how -- you agree you described the ground all
around there as marshy ground, or do you say otherwise?
A. The ground all around was marshy. This means as
a countryside.
Q. Because it was between two
rivers.
A. It was between two rivers, but as
you probably have been in your life in a marshy
countryside there are occasional visitors around and
fisherman. So in marshy land I would say that there
are some quite dried out, well-prepared pieces of land
by the administration of the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp
which were not marshy or which were not to be
considered too marshy, especially when I was in winter
1942 it was heavy frost, and you know, it was sort of
solid earth.
Q. Mm-hmmm. It was frozen earth?
A. Frozen earth.
Q. Well, how does the fire
keep the water from melting?
A. How does fire ....
Q. How is the fire
arranged so that the water in this marshy ground did
not melt and fill up the pit that was as high as that
top panel on the wall over there? That's a long way
down, isn't it?
A. Yes. Well, you are asking me
again something which I do not know, neither from eye
witness account, nor have I consulted on technical
problem, and I suppose that anybody with a slight
technical education will explain to you that if you
are in a marshy land and dry out that marsh on, say,
one kilometer square, then you get completely
different conditions within that kilometer square than
in the rest of the marsh. I would think so.
Q.
You would think so.
A. But you are asking me
not eye witness account.
Q. What do you mean?
A. You are asking me I should speculate here how
Germans have done something, whereas I am only telling
you what I have actually seen.
Q. Yes. You have
actually seen a pit as deep as the top panel of that
wall in the courtroom in which there was a fire in the
bottom.
A. No. The fire was extinguished. I
said, if you listen carefully, that the pit was not in
use when I have seen it, but it was in use a short
time before, because heat was still coming out of the
pit.
Q. Yeah.
A. And by looking into the
pit I saw residues of children's bones.
Q.
Mm-hmmm. Residues of children's bones.
A. Yes. Head bones.
Q. Head bones. Now, is
it the case, then, that you say that the remnant of
the fire from which you warmed yourself was down in
the bottom of the pit?
A. Well, if you keep in
that pit a considerable fire for two or three days and
then go away, it leaves a fire, so to say,
extinguished, and come after two days -- this was a
big fire, four or five hundred bodies were burned
there, say.
Q. All right, we will say that.
A. And say after two days it is very cold and you
put on gloves and you put your hand over that ....
Q. The fire?
A. Not the fire, over that
hole ....
Q. Embers.
A. Yeah. You will
feel that warmth comes up.
Q. I'm sure you
would.
A. And that is what I felt.
Q.
You felt that.
A. That's why I was standing
there, you see. The view of the children's heads was
not sort of too enlightening or pleasing my heart.
Q. So you described it as a pit that was that deep. I
suppose you mean to the part where there was solid or
some evidence of the children's heads, they were down
---
A. --- at the bottom of the pit.
Q.
Six meters.
A. Yes. At the bottom of the pit.
Q. Six meters down?
A. Yes. But it was only
four meters and not six meters, because I didn't have
a tape, and my measures would be very sort of lost,
and perhaps in view of the awesome situation it might
have appeared to me bigger than it was, you see,
within a meter or two.
Q. Within ---
A.
I know you will blame me that I didn't use a
yardstick, but it wasn't technically possible.
Q. No, I don't blame you at all. I am just asking you
questions, and perhaps if you will answer them, that
will be a good idea.
A. I will be pleased.
Q. So if I understand
you correctly, the six by six by six meters you say
might be cut by one or two meters?
A. Might be
out by one or two meters.
Q. Mm-hmmm. You don't
understand or know any reason why there would be no
water in the bottom of this pit; you have no
explanation for that at all.
A. Of course I
have an explanation. If the pit was heated up, and if
there was a lot of bodies burning, everything -- and
if it was not used once but many times, then the water
from around would have long time dried out.
Q.
I see. Is it true that what you said earlier was the
case that it was marshy ground?
A. The marshy
ground was general around Auschwitz. In other words
---
Q. Not around Birkenau?
A. Around
Birkenau. In other words, how marshy Birkenau was, I,
the first time realized only after I left Birkenau and
had to cross the common camp area.
In other
words, Birkenau was build up in a marsh area, but
Birkenau itself was not marshy any more.
Q. Oh,
you say that it was built up above the level of the
land.
A. I do not say that it was built above
the level of the land, but proper and simple
ameliorative measures were taken so that Birkenau and
the Birkenau installations will not be succumbed by
the swamps. The swamps were there, otherwise you will
have to ask for the technical administration of
Auschwitz camp house. I am not a builder, but I knew
how to build things.
Q. What ameliorative
measures do you say were taken?
A. Yes, ameliorative measures, which translated
means measures to regulate unexpected flood of water.
It is used quite frequently by great agricultural
enterprises when they want a piece of their
agricultural dry, and a piece wet. This is achieved by
amelioration.
Q. What ameliorative measures do
you say were taken to prevent water from being a
problem in Auschwitz? Do you say that they raised the
level of the land?
A. The camp administrations
did not inform me about those technical details. I
have no knowledge.
Q. Now, you gave a
description of a gas chamber. I think, if I
interpreted you correctly, that you saw from Block 27
---
A. Right.
Q. --- Alfred Wetzler's
mortuary ---
A. Right.
Q. --- the wooden
building that isn't on the plan ....
A. That's
right.
Q. Did he build it himself?
A.
No. It was built.
Q. Could you, taking this
map, Exhibit "H", be so kind as to make marks, and I'd
like to give you a coloured pen to do it with.
A. Yes. And you want me to make certain marks?
THE COURT: No. Just a moment, please. Here is a red
one.
MR CHRISTIE: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
Q. Could you just show us, by circling on this
Exhibit "H" -- do you want to move that? Now, could
you circle the block where the mortuary was?
A.
Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. The mortuary -- this
was Block No. 27.
Q. Right. It's marked right
on it. Just mark a circle around it if you would.
A. And the mortuary was there, wooden annex. So that
the one wall of 27 was one wall of mortuary which was
wood. In other words, it was a duplex.
Q. Do
you mind if I draw an arrow and you can label it? Just
label that and label it -- may I do it? If I can write
it, it may be a little bit clearer.
A. It's
your property. You can write what you want.
Q.
And that's where Alfred Wetzler ....
A. Has his
office and his mortuary until 8 June 1943.
Q.
And that is where you made your observations, right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. Can you just put your initials right
there so that I am confirming that that's what you've
told me and I have written it down according to your
instructions?
A. Yes. But the direction in
which I looked was completely different from where you
have ---
Q. I put the arrow there just because
of the paper, not for direction.
A. And because
you are a stickler for accuracy, it is Vetzler
(phonetic) not Wetzler (phonetic), and you might blame
me that I gave you a false name.
Q. No, I wouldn't do that. Now, you might tell us,
then, where you saw this man dump, when you said, the
Zyklon-B through the hatches.
A. I beg your
pardon?
Q. You said you saw an S.S. man dumping
Zyklon-B through the hatches. Now, if you could make a
specific mark where you saw that, maybe a zero or a
circle or some mark.
A. Mm-hmmm.
Q. What
would you use?
A. I think I would use either
here or here.
Q. So there's two possible
places?
A. Yes, because my memory is not bad. It is not
perfect ....
Q. So you put it in two places and
you put three dots in each place.
A. That's
right.
Q. Could you take and draw an arrow up
to here and then identify in the piece of paper what
it is you saw there? This is where you saw, what, the
S.S. man dump the Zyklon, right?
A. S.S. man
dumps Zyklon.
Q. All right.
A. Into
vents of bunker protruding from Krematorium I,
Krematorium II in a way that was clearly in line of
sight when I was looking from the window.
Q.
Well, we don't want to write the whole story there.
You'd better stop.
A. You want to be exact.
When I was looking from the window of the mortuary
next to Block 27 Birkenau IB.
Q. Mm-hmmm. Good.
A. Should I initial this,
too.
Q. You might as well.
A. Yes. You
got an autograph.
THE COURT: That exhibit will
now be Exhibit 21.
--- EXHIBIT NO.21: Map of
Birkenau
(Formerly Exhibit "H")
Q. MR
CHRISTIE: Now, Mr Vrba ---
A. I am, for the
last thirty-five years, accustomed to be called Dr
Vrba, but if it is not suitable for you, you can call
me sir. It is shorter.
Q. Thank you very much,
sir. Would you agree with me that I am now pointing --
you had better check and see that I am pointed in the
right place -- to the protruding portions that you've
identified, and there's two places where you put three
dots. Is that right two places where you put three
dots?
A. Yes. Yes. But I have specified that it
was protruding from the cremotorium as a bunker. That
should cover the situation.
Q. All right. I
would just like to show that to the jury.
Now,
Dr Vrba, just tell us once more how it was that you
saw the S.S. man get up onto that bunker.
A.
You mean I should repeat my statement from yesterday?
Q. Just the part about getting up to the bunker. Just
describe that. Let me say to you that you said he put
one can up on top ....
A. Yes. He first put the cans down because he
brought them not with the carriage; he brought them
under his arms, and there might have been five or six.
Q. Five or six cans.
A. Yes.
Q. And
he picked one up and put it on top?
A. First
one down and he started to put them up on top, and he
crept up on it like a monkey, which surprised me.
Q. You say he hooked his arms over the edge and
pulled himself up?
A. Yes. He sort of climbed
up like a monkey.
Q. He had to reach up to the
edge of the bunker?
A. Yes. Or, you know, to
get a hold with his hand.
Q. Yeah.
A.
And then he was climbing over the cement, which is
rather smooth, but he managed to get up.
Q.
Well, the last time you said he was rather sporty in
the way he pulled himself up, yesterday.
A.
Yes.
Q. Now, how high was it that he had to reach up?
A. I would say it was high enough that he couldn't
walk up, but he could make an exercise.
Q. He
could make an exercise?
THE COURT: Just a minute. Just stay where you are.
THE WITNESS: He had to make an effort. He couldn't
walk up or jump up. It was higher than that.
Q.
MR CHRISTIE: Did he have to reach higher than I am
reaching now?
A. Possibly.
Q. And then,
getting a hold of the edge of the roof and pulling
himself up?
A. Possibly, but possibly his hands
were in this position. This I wouldn't, after forty
years, to say, or so. You can say, then, of course, if
my memory is imbecile, but after forty years this
difference in movement I couldn't guarantee.
Q.
Well, I suggest to you, sir, that -- were you talking
about a flat roof?
A. Yes.
Q. And this
roof, you say, was fixed with vents, there were vents
on it three?
A. Three or four.
Q. On
your picture you drew three.
A. Yeah.
Q.
And you led us to believe that he was rather sporty,
and you remember yesterday you used that term?
A. Yes.
Q. You said it was unusual for an S.S.
man to do that?
A. Yes, because they had a
pathological condition of his self dignity. And here I
saw he didn't care.
Q. So am I clear in
understanding you that the wall that he had to climb
up on was a cement wall?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you sure of that?
A. Pretty sure.
Q. Pretty sure?
A. Yes. I didn't touch it,
but as far as I can see cement from a distance of
fifty yards, I would say pretty sure. I had no doubt
in my mind about it.
Q. Do you know what a
Leichenkeller is?
A. Yes.
Q. You know
what it is?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. It is a mortuary.
Q. I suggest to you
that what you are talking about is the roof of the
mortuary, and the mortuary was underground.
A.
Have you been there?
Q. No, I haven't, sir.
Have you?
A. No, but I've heard that it was a
gas chamber from those who worked there.
Q. You
say you haven't been there.
A. No, not inside.
Usually those who were inside didn't come out, so I
was lucky not to be in there.
Q. You are very
amusing, sir, but please answer my question. Do you
say that the roof of the building was above the
ground, or parallel to the ground level?
A. The roof was above the ground, but you could
see that it was a roof of something which goes deep
down, and mortuary was not necessary there for camp
inmates because we had, at maximum, in Birkenau, only
three hundred or four hundred daily dead, and they
were taken in every night to Auschwitz for burning. So
why would they have a mortuary of the size of thirty
yards long for four hundred dead which had perfectly
good place in Fred's little cabin?
Q. So in
Fred's little cabin you kept three hundred or four
hundred dead every day.
A. Yes.
Q. And
from there they were taken to the crematoria.
A. That's right. And the cabin wasn't bigger than this
here, you see, and I can show you how three hundred
people can be put within this space.
Q. With
enough room for you to drink coffee?
A. And
enough room for us to drink coffee on table on top of
it, yes, with a white serviette under us.
Q.
Now, you gave us reason to believe that if a person
was sick they went to hospital and there was no
treatment and they would die. Right?
A.
Usually, but sometimes there was treatment.
Q. Yes. Well, was it the case that they tried to
keep people alive?
A. In that hospital?
Q. No. In the camp at all. My impression from you
yesterday was that if somebody got sick and couldn't
work, they were either put on the ground and a bar was
put across his throat and then the Kapo would jump on
both sides of the bar and break his throat ....
A. That's right, if he was in the mood, or ---
Q. .... or just a moment he would be killed by the
Blockältester for not standing or if he was in the
mood, he would send him to the hospital, which was not
a hospital but Krankenbau; Krankenbau, translated, did
not mean hospital but it means a building for the
sick.
A. That is what it was called.
THE
COURT: Mr Christie, I think we will adjourn. Twenty
minutes.
--- The jury retires. 11:30 a.m.
THE COURT: Doctor, you can step down. Please do
not discuss this case with anyone until this case is
completed.
--- The witness stands down.
--- Short adjournment.
------------
---
Upon resuming.
--- The witness returns to the
stand.
THE COURT: Is there anything, gentlemen,
before I call the jury?
MR CHRISTIE: No. Thank
you.
THE COURT: Bring in the jury, please.
--- The jury enters. 12:00 p.m.
THE COURT: Go
ahead, Mr Christie.
MR CHRISTIE: Thank you.
Q. I was asking you, Dr
Vrba, about whether people who were sick ever received
medical treatment.
A. There were exceptions
that they did receive medical treatment.
Q. You
were one of them; in fact, you had a surgical
operation and were anesthetized and, obviously,
recovered. Is that right?
A. That is so.
Q. You developed, I understand, some kind of
infection in the area of your posterior; am I right?
A. That's right.
Q. And it obviously
resulted in you being unable to work at all, right?
A. This is a consequence of beating.
Q. Yes,
because you were beaten. You suffered an injury and
were beaten by a Kapo?
A. No. By an S.S. man.
Q. And you suffered an injury and then you were taken
to a hospital where you were anesthetized, and before
you were completely under the anesthetic I gather they
had begun operating on you.
A. That's right.
Q. And you recovered?
A. That's right.
Q. So I suppose that there
was some kind of septicimia or blood poisoning from
your previous injury; is that right?
A. The
beating on the buttocks usually results in the
destruction of a number of tissues connected to it,
and that cells are liable to infection which then
spreads. The surgery was therefore necessary to
prevent a general poisoning of blood.
Q. You
went to the hospital; you got the surgery and you
recovered.
A. Yes.
Q. I suppose that
they had to apply stitches to the wound.
A.
Possibly.
Q. You don't know?
A. I don't
know. The wound is still there.
Q. Now, I'd
like you to turn to page 209 of your hardcover book.
I'd like you to read the third paragraph with me and
make sure I don't miss a word. It begins with the
words, "His physical strength".
Have you found
it? Page 209 of your edition.
A. I am looking
for it.
Q. It is actually the third full
paragraph from the top. The first part of the
paragraph begins from the previous page, so it begins
with the words, "His physical strength".
A. On page 208.
Q.209.
A. 209?
Q. Yes.
A. "His physical strength was
such", yes.
Q. ".... that even the Monkey Tyn,
the Camp Senior, was afraid of him. His contacts among
the influential prisoners in general and the
Sonderkommando, who had access to the valuables of the
gas chamber victims, in particular, were closer than
those of Fero Langer."
Am I pronouncing that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. "He was a millionaire
even by the standards of Birkenau, where I have seen
twenty-dollar bills used as toilet paper; ...."
A. Yes.
Q. " ....and he used his wealth to
gain power over the S.S. by the simple expedient of
bribery."
A. That's right.
Q. So it is
right that you have seen $20 bills used as toilet
paper in Birkenau?
A. I used them.
Q.
You used them.
A. Yes, so that they don't get
into the hands of the Germans.
Q. So that's the
truth, then.
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you. These
are $20 American bills, or Canadian bills?
A. I
have seen only American money and English pound. The
English pounds were much more suitable for this
purpose because they were printed only on one side.
Q. So you've seen people use these for toilet paper as
you say.
A. Yes.
Q. You watched them use them for toilet paper?
A. Well, they usually were in a certain amount of
privacy and I didn't look so close, but I knew that
sometimes money which had to be delivered to the S.S.,
when we were sorting out the property, has been
disposed of instead of being given away, into the
toilets, so that the Nazis don't get hold of Western
currency. It was a type of sabotage.
Q. I see.
Why not just rip the money up?
A. Because by
ripping the money up it is rather a long process, and
if somebody would see it, you would lose the life of
it.
A. Well, it would be easier to smuggle it
into a latrine and use it for toilet paper?
A.
Well, if you go to the toilet you might use it for
toilet paper, or if you are worried, you can throw it
in. Sometimes I threw bundles of hundred-dollar notes.
Q. I see. Whole bundles of hundred-dollar notes.
A. That's right.
Q. And you also seemed to
indicate that bribes in the region of hundred thousand
British pounds were used in the camp, don't you?
A. This is quite possible, yes; but such bribes were
not paid in currency. They were paid, usually, in
diamonds you know, a tin-full with diamonds is
sometimes worth hundred thousand pounds or more.
Q. Well, I understand you to have said, at one point,
that somebody bribed an S.S. guard with a hundred
thousand pounds.
A. Well, I didn't refer to
cash. I referred to valuables valued at hundred
thousand pounds.
Q. The way I understand the
story you told was that the S.S. guard would be paid
from somebody outside the camp.
A. I don't understand now to which story you refer.
Q. Mm-hmmm. You don't remember that?
A.
Would you please remind me? There were several
stories, bribery of S.S. The S.S., apart from being
murderers, were also thieves. This goes together.
Q. Sure. You don't recall the story of the
hundred-pound bribe that you used in your book? There
were more than one?
A. The bribe that Charles
Ungel paid in order to smuggle him out from the camp?
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. Yes, I remember the story,
and I remember that money was supposed to be paid. It
was in tins. So this means that I assume that there
were gold and $20 pieces and various other gold monets,
and mainly diamonds with considerable size of carats,
and it would be roughly valued to a value of half a
million dollars or hundred thousand pounds.
Q.
Mm-hmmm. Do you agree with me that many people escaped
from Auschwitz?
A. I have no statistics about
it.
Q. Are you familiar with the book, "Fighting
Auschwitz", by Joseph Garlinski?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you familiar with that book?
A. I think
I perused that book, yes.
Q. Sorry?
A. I
perused that book. I even met Mr Garlinski in Paris
once in 1972.
Q. Yeah. Do you agree with me
that he indicates that altogether there escaped from
Auschwitz and its sub camps, chiefly Birkenau, 667
prisoners of whom sixteen were women in 1942, in 1941,
six ---
Q. (A) Does he refer to successful attempts or
escapes of attempts?
Q. Well, later on he deals
with how many were successful, but I am dealing with
escapes.
A. Well, you see, here you must take
it with a pinch of salt, because Germans considered
escapes attempt, they hang. For example, I saw a
political prisoner hanged because he had two shirts
under his tunic, and he said he wear two shirts
because he is feeling cold, and the answer was, if
others can feel one shirt without feeling cold and he
wears two shirts, then this is obviously preparation
for escape and he was hanged for that. Now, in the
statistics it would go as execution for attempt to
escape, so I don't know, therefore, how the statistics
correlate for attempts to escape.
Q. So you don't know whether there were other
people who escaped or not.
A. I know that there
was a major outbreak of sixty-five Russians under
special circumstances, and I have been present on
numerous amount of hangings of people who were
supposed to have tried to escape.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. But I have got no personal knowledge of anybody
who successfully escaped without being brought back
into the camp.
Q. I see. So nobody successfully
escaped.
A. To my knowledge.
Q. So that
is why, I suppose, nobody but you would have raised
the extermination allegation. Is that your explanation?
A. No. Some people escaped, perhaps, and went into
hiding. And so that they are perfectly satisfied with
the achievement that saved their lives from the hands
of those murderers, but I felt that I have to do more,
and that is why I wrote the report and tried to allow
the events which are occurring in Auschwitz.
Q.
You had a deep and abiding hatred for the Germans, I
would imagine.
A. I am perfectly fluent in
German as well as in Russian, and I love Goerthe and I
love Pushkin and I am an enemy of anything that smells
of hatred against a nationality. I had a perfectly
human hatred against Nazis because these were
anti-human organization against whom the whole world
was fighting for bloody six years, and I was no
exception in the will and decision to do everything
possible to get this evil down from the face of the
earth.
Q. Mm-hmmm. So it's a political
organization you hated, not the people themselves.
A. To hate the people as a nation I consider a
criminal matter.
Q. Mm-hmmm. You hated the
Nazis, though, I assume from your answer; is that
right?
A. I would say so.
Q. And you
hate them enough to lie about them?
A. I beg
your pardon?
Q. Do you hate them enough to lie
about them?
A. I have sworn on oath that here I
will say the truth, and you will make an innuendo that
I have lied in anything, then you would have to
support it with some evidence, otherwise I would think
badly about it.
Q. Well, I suggest to you that
in your previous evidence you gave us to believe and
told us as a fact that when the S.S. man climbed up on
the long bunker, he had to reach up six and a half to
seven feet. I put it to you that that is exactly what
you said, sir, isn't it?
A. Is it?
Q. I put it to you, and you are the witness, and
you have the memory and you testified, I put it to you
that's what you said.
A. I said, basically,
that he had to reach up upon that bunker, and that
bunker was, as far as I remember, certainly up to here
if one would stand nearby, perhaps higher. So in other
words he had to reach up and he had to climb. I didn't
go there with a tape to measure if it was five or
seven. You must understand that if I use such
approximations, I am using them in order to make it
more understandable to the jury and to the court of
what approximately was involved, but they are not
identical with engineering measurements.
Q.
Well, you gave us to believe and you told us, as a
matter of fact, and I put it to you that you said six
and a half to seven feet.
A. Yes.
Q.
That's what you said.
A. Yes, that would be
approximately the height of a grown-up man
Q.
Aha.
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, I put it to you
that the roof of the Leichenkeller to which you
referred on the map ....
A. Yes.
Q. ....
was actually parrallel to and very close to the ground.
A. That is what you are putting to me?
Q.
Yes. That's right.
A. How do you know that?
Q. Because I have seen the plans, if you want an
answer. Have you seen the plans?
A. No.
Q. I will show them to you. I now
produce and show to you George Wellersleigh's
(Wellers) "Gas Chambers" -- or "Les Chambres a Gas ont
Existée" The Gas Chambers Do Exist.
A. Did
exist.
THE COURT: Ask him if he knows about the
book and the plan.
MR CHRISTIE: Have you seen
this book before?
A. I have never seen this
book before, but I have seen the author, George
Wellers.
Q. Have you seen these plans before?
A. I have not seen the plans. May I make a remark?
Q. You described the death of Josef Erdelyi, on
page 149, 152 193 (153?) of my book, and then on page
170. Can you tell me why you described it?
A.
Could you once more tell me the numbers?
Q. On
page 149, 152 and 153 149, 152 you describe the death
of Josef Erdelyi from typhus, and then on page 152 you
describe him as being with you. Can you explain that?
A. Numbers up to 153?
Q. Yes. Those are the
pages and they are identical. You are using the
hardcover edition; I am using the soft edition.
A. Well, I don't need to go into the matter to
explain this, because I remember it quite well. What
happened is the following:
I described in the
book the death of Erdelyi, and then, later, Erdelyi
appears as a hanging as a witness; is that right?
Q. That is what I recall.
A. That's right.
That was in the book. You are recording it quite right.
This means that I described how my friend, Erdelyi
from Banowce (ph), a friend of mine, from childhood,
in approximately September or October 1942, but in
later part of the book, until then, I haven't written
anything about the procedures which are applied in
Auschwitz for attempts to escape. And the first time
when I saw such procedures was approximately in July
1942, in the first week when I was in Auschwitz. At
that time Erdelyi lived. In other words, what I have
used in this book is what is a general technique of
many who write books on literature, that is a
flashback.
Q. Yes. Okay. So it's a flashback,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, in the book
you give narrative. You give words to people and you
create situations.
A. Words to people who
create situations?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I
don't create situations. I describe situations.
Q. Can you tell us how, in this book, you describe
the words uttered by people at the time?
A. I
certainly didn't have a stenographist nearby to record
the words exactly, neither did I have a dictaphone to
---
Q. But I suggest you have a good
imagination, so I suggest you created the words.
A. You can call it imagination or you can call it good
memory.
Q. Yeah.
A. In other words, I
have created the situation in an artistic way, if you
allow me to count myself on account of this book as an
artist or as an artistic attempt.
Q. I suggest,
also, that you falsified to some extent as well,
because throughout the book you referred to someone by
the name of Rudolf Vrba, and you attribute the name
Vrba to the conversations, and Rudi, meaning you, and
in fact, there was nobody by that name in the camp,
sir. Is that right?
A. That is perfectly so, but I would take a great
objection against your word "falsify", because I would
say, then, that the artist drawn my moustache in a
different way has falsified something. This is not a
document, but literature, and literature has been
meant mainly for young people and it would be for
young people a considerable confusion to explain to
them all the methods of clandestine work and how it
came that the names have to be changed.
Moreover, I would have to explain my real ground and
reasons why I changed my German name to the name of my
native language, and this would have transferred,
perhaps, a national hatred to the reader, which I
wanted to avoid, against the Germans.
In other
words, I used my licence of a poet, it is called
licensia poetarium, to put in the book only those
facts and events which will enable a young person to
understand the general situation.
Q. Mm-hmmm. So for you it's poetic licence?
A. Poetic licence in this particular case.
Q. Yeah.
A. In other words, I am not bound to
make of it a document, but re-creates the situation as
close as possible to the truth without complicating
it.
Q. Without complicating it. Without quoting
from the book that you have, I am quoting from one
that you acknowledge is attributed to you. Maybe we
should check the foreword, the preface in the one you
have.
A. Yes.
Q. See if it's the same
preface.
A. Mm-hmmm.
Q. Will you agree
with this statement about this writing: "There is no
chip on his shoulder; and bitterness, where it exists,
is controlled carefully by undeniable facts, not by
fancies ...."
Do you agree?
A. Where
bitterness ....
Q. No. ".... and bitterness,
where it exists, is controlled carefully by undeniable
facts, not by fancies."
A. That is perfectly
so. In the first line, as far as the bitterness, it is
absolutely unimportant in this Court whether I am
bitter or sweet. The fact is, whether I am right or
wrong about the gas chamber in Auschwitz, as far as
the preface which is written about Mr Alan Bestic, you
have to discuss the literary merits of Mr Bestic with
him personally.
Q. I am interested in
discussing the facts with you, and I want to know if
you say that it is an undeniable fact contained within
this book.
A. This book describes that
Auschwitz was a place of mass extermination, that
during the time when I was, 1,760,000 men, women and
children were murdered in a low way.
Q. In the
gas chamber?
A. In the gas chamber and
otherwise.
Q. I have a question for you.
A. Please don't interrupt -- and to this extent, the
book, naturally, is true.
Q. You say 1.7 million people were gassed in
Auschwitz, and that is truth?
A. 1.7 million --
1,760,000 plus, in the time of my being there, because
many others were killed when I wasn't there, but I
wasn't an eye witness and I have no right to talk
about that.
Q. You say 1.75 --
A. 1.765,
according to my count.
Q. Of people gassed
while you were there
A. Yes.
Q. That
includes Jews and gentiles and everybody else.
A. That's right.
Q. Isn't it true that in the
War Refugee Report that you provided at the time, that
you said 2.5 million people were gassed while you were
there.
A. I've got the War REfugee Board here
in front of me, and it comes from the Office of the
President of the United States of America, and has a
seal of the Criminal Division of the Office of Special
Investigations.
Q. I am wrong. I will withdraw
that question.
A. You are wrong again, or
should I prove that you are wrong?
Q. No, that's fine. I'll admit I am wrong.
A. Because according to here ---
THE COURT:
Just a moment, Doctor. Defence counsel has said, as I
heard him, that he was wrong. I don't think there is
any need for you to prove it unless he asks you again.
A. Thank you.
Q. MR CHRISTIE: You say 1.765
million, is that right?
A. 1.765 thousand.
Q. Right. Did you see one person being gassed
yourself?
A. I saw 1.765 thousand people walk
into the space between Krematorium I and Krematorium
II, Krematorium III and Krematorium IV, were in front
of my eyes knowing that the space is absolutely closed,
because there is no road out from there except coming
back the way they went in, and nobody came out from
there except smoke. If you, perhaps, suggest that they
are still there, that's a different thing.
Q.
Well, we will discuss that in a moment, but we will
find in your book where it says and I am using page
ten, but your book is slightly different I am just
going to read it to you:
"For the machinery
that sucked in 2,500,000 men, women and children in
three years and puffed them out in harmless black
smoke ...."
Was that what you said?
A.
Which page is that?
Q. Mine was ten. Yours is
around there in your hard cover.
A. Well, this is a very simple calculation, Mr Counsel,
because when I escaped on April 7, 1944, the main
message which I was carrying was that everything is
prepared for the mass murder of Hungarian Jews. At
that time there was one million Hungarian Jews, and as
you can find from historical documentation which is
presently available, in the time of July 15 to -- May
15, 1944 to July 7, 1944, not less than 437,000
Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz, of which
ninety percent were gassed at arrival.
Now, if
you add to 1,765,000 those Hungarian Jews which were
deported to Auschwitz immediately after my escape,
plus as we know many thousands of Jews who were
brought to Auschwitz for process of mass murder from
the ghetto of Loge and from the ghetto of Theresine in
the month after my escape, you will find that my
figures are as true as possible or as close as
possible to the historical records.
Q. So you
are telling me about the facts that you gathered from
other sources and you are telling me that it is ---
A. Plus my judgment, with my accuracy, with trusting
to what I have seen, and with knowing what happened in
Hungary, because many of my relatives perished at the
same time, and with knowing, studying the history of
this period, I arrived at a figure of two and a half
million dead in Auschwitz, saying that this figure is
pretty close to the truth, but the truth cannot be
established with my means better than with a maximum
possible error of truth minus ten per cent. That is
clearly stated at the end of this book. And in my
affidavit, which I have put under oath, the Embassy of
Israel 1960 the Eichmann trial, and if I am allowed to
quote the exact ---
THE COURT: Not at the
moment.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: It was a simple
question as to whether you estimated 2,500,000, and I
think you said yes, and you've told us why. Maybe I
will go on to another question unless there is
something you want to say.
A. And you have got
here everything how I came to the 2,500,000. You are
confusing us here because the jury did not read the
book, and therefore you are again pulling out things
which I have to repeat and which are here on this page,
and I can tell you on this page is written that I have
seen only one million three quarters to die until
April 7th, and I have also said that the figure two
and a half million is made up by the addition of the
final value of my statistics in April 1944 plus a
known figure of 400,000 Hungarian Jews killed in May,
June and July 1944, plus official figure of about
350,000 registered prisoners who died in Auschwitz.
Thus, as far as I could recollect, according to my
memory, observations and opinion, the number of
victims in Auschwitz was two and a half million. Thus,
my estimation of the death roll in Auschwitz and the
estimation made by Rudolf Hoess, the commander of
Auschwitz, made independently of each other and using
different methods, were nevertheless in good agreement,
and I declare by Almighty God that this is my name and
signature and that the contents of my affidavit are
true.
So you see what is the difference between
you tearing out a statement and between presenting the
statement in full as I suggested.
Q. I suppose
the only difference is, you confirm that your figures
now agree with those of Rudolf Hoess. Right?
A.
As far as I could see. I read the figures of Rudolf
Hoess and I arrived at the same conclusion as Rudolf
Hoess. Also, Rudolf Hoess statistics, his method of
observation is different than mine, and he came to the
same figure. But I gave my figure in April 1944 when
Rudolf Hoess was still commander in Auschwitz, and
that figure was reached the President of the United
States in November 1944, when Rudolf Hoess was still
commander in Auschwitz, and it is therefore obvious
that it is not likely that I copied my statement from
Rudolf Hoess.
Q. No. I quite agree with you. But how do you
explain the fact that the estimate given by you
coincided with a statement given by Hoess two years
later?
A. Because Hoess knew the truth, and I
knew the truth.
Q. How do you explain the fact
that experts like Dr Raul Hilberg dispute that figure
and say it is closer to one million, or, in
Reitlinger's case, 800,000 at Birkenau?
A. It
is not for me to explain the scholarships of
Reitlinger or Hilberg, because they have different
methods of scholarships. For them, if they do not have
documents of considerable value and amount, which are
very difficult to obtain, they prefer not to include
that figure in their final calculation, because they
are bound by historical discipline; whereas my figure
is based on eye witness account.
Q. You claim
that you then were an eye witness to the gassing of
1,765,000 people, right?
A. Right. And I think that in this respect both
Hilberg and Reitlinger has made an under estimate.
Similarly, both Hilberg and Reitlinger have stated
that the number of Jews killed in Einsatzkommandos
this means by shooting and not by gassing was
1,400,000, but three years ago I have written a new
study by Professor Krowsnick from Germany, Professor
in Cologne and Director of the Institute
................................... and this professor
Krowsnick [Krausnick], on the basis of exclusivity,
German documents, without investigating any of the
survivors but investigating only the German officers
and their correspondence about it, was able to
reconstruct that it was not 1.4 million, but two and a
quarter million who were murdered by the
Einsatzkommandos.
So you can see that in spite
of the great effort which the Nazis have made to cover
up the incredible crimes, modern scholarship is
constantly improving with more than scientific methods
the truth. The truth is not so simple. So you can ---
Q. Now, sir ---
A. So you can see it is not criticism of Hilberg and
Reitlinger. It just shows that better scholars with
better methods and better access to sources can give
more exact figures and those figures are most close to
mine, based on observation, than the figures close to
scholars who spend their lives only in limited amount
of libraries.
Q. So your experience, then,
supersedes your knowledge on the basis of what you
said.
A. This would be natural, because I was
there.
Q. And you counted 1,765,000 going into
the gas chamber.
A. That was told to you twice.
Q. Thank you. You also described the situation
where you said that the guards forced the prisoners to
sing "Silent Night" and beat them to death if they
didn't. Is that right?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. You, in your book, describe a situation where
the guards forced the prisoners to sing "Silent Night"
at Christmas time, and if they didn't sing properly
they were sent to bed without supper. Is that right?
A. That is right partially. Others were murdered.
Q.They were murdered for not singing "Silent Night"
properly.
A. That's right. And if I may add
another legal point of view, I have been approached by
the German Embassy, German Consulate in Vancouver
three months ago on the case of investigation of the
well-known event in Auschwitz I and Birkenau, that
during Christmas of 1942 they put up a great Christmas
Tree and brought there a number of prisoners, killed
them and hanged them over that Christmas Tree and
proclaimed that this is a suitable ornamentation at
this period in this place. This became an
investigation. The perpetrators of the crime are known
by name to the Consul General of the Federal Republic
of Vancouver, and I am sure he will be more than
willing to provide you with the documentation.
THE COURT: Just a moment, Doctor. We are getting
far afield here. What is your next question?
Q.
MR CHRISTIE: Is it your observation that prisoners
would be singing on their way to work from Birkenau?
A. Yes.
Q. And they would go out and work
in the fields from the women's camp the women would go
out and work in the fields? Do you deny that?
A. I haven't seen that. I have seen them marched to
various places of work.
Q. Singing.
A.
Singing. On order. German songs.
Q. Yes.
A. But I have never seen them
working in the fields. I saw them working in Kanada
this means during sorting out of the goods which were
stolen from the victims, and I have seen them being
marched into the armament factories of Krupps and
Siemens and of German armament factories DAW, but I
didn't see them working on any fields. There might
have been such a thing, but I was not aware of it and
I was not an eye witness to it.
Q. Sure. Are
you aware that in your book you described an air raid
upon Auschwitz-Birkenau in April of 1944, two days
after you escaped?
A. April ....
Q.
April '44.
A. Which day?
Q. I think you
said the 9th of April, two days after you escaped.
A. That's right.
Q. Is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. I was going to ask you if,
in view of the fact that you dispute what Reitlinger
and Hilberg said because they are not at the scene
whether you agree that other authors who were at the
scene and lived in the concentration camp say there
was no air raid until August of '44 two months after
you were gone.
A. This I can easily explain,
this apparent discrepancy, by simply showing you a map.
Q. Please do. You know what I mean, don't you,
when I say ---
A. Very well.
Q. You know that Primo Levy, who claims that he
was a survivor of Auschwitz, claims that there was no
air raid until later until after you left?
A.
Pretty well. I will explain where the discrepancy
arose.
Q. Before you get the explanation, let
me put on record what I suggest he says. You know that
he says, quoting page 107 of his book, "Survival in
Auschwitz", by Primo Levy, he says:
"But in
August '44 the bombardments of Upper Silesia began and
they ...... pauses and renewals in the summer and
autumn until a definitive crisis ...."
Now, you
read about that and you are aware of it?
A. Beg
your pardon?
Q. You know about that passage,
don't you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, can you
explain:
"On the night of April 9th we had a
shock of a distant nature. About eight o'clock we
heard the rumble of distant air planes, soemthing we
had not known in Auschwitz. They came closer and
closer and then bombs began to scrunch not far away."
You agree that is what you wrote?
A. Yes.
Q. One other question. There is no doubt about
Auschwitz-Birkenau being in Upper Silesia and Primo
Levy is talking about Birkenau in his book.
A.
Yes.
Q. Now, will you explain it?
A. Am I allowed to go to the projector?
THE
COURT: If you feel that is the best way to explain it,
you may do that.
THE WITNESS: On April 7, 1944,
I went into hiding. This was for my escape. And I
stayed there for three days and nights covered by many
layers of wood. Here, at this place, approximately at
the northeastern corner of Birkenau camp, were
situated a battery of anti-aircraft artillery.
When I was hidden in my place here, it wouldn't be
possible for me, due to the position of this anti-aircraft
battery that I never heard before, to distinguish if
it was a bombardment or if the artillery has been
activated. As far as I know it has been published
recently that the first planes flew over Auschwitz
already on 1st April 1944, and as far as I remember I
heard a plane overhead and I heard strong explosions
which were shooking the bunker in which I was. It is
quite likely that the artillery fire which was opened
on the 9th against the air plane in the situation in
which I was, I consider for the bombardment.
Q.
Thank you.
A. In which case I made an error.
Q. So really, what you said as to bombs falling,
was the anti-aircraft guns going on?
A. If
there were no bombs, then it was anti-aircraft guns
which were in close vicinity.
Q. Mm-hmmm. But
anyone else who was in the camp would have heard the
same guns, wouldn't they?
A. I would think so.
Q. And you don't dispute what Primo Levy, a
prisoner, says, then.
A. Well, I don't dispute
it, but Primo Levy, if you read carefully his book, he
was in Auschwitz III at that time, which is further in
the Bunawerk than I was from the artillery which was
operated about a distance of two hundred yards,
whereas he was in a distance of about six miles. So he
might have heard something different than I did.
Q. Oh, I see. Thank you.
A. You didn't take
notice that Primo Levy was in Auschwitz III.
Q.
No, I'll check that, though.
A. Please do.
Q. You describe that you went to the hospital and
recovered and had surgery and you had an operation.
How do you explain your miraculous value as opposed to
others who you say were not given treatment?
A.
I will explain in a minute. Your Honour, can I leave
the room for two minutes?
THE COURT: Yes.
Members of the jury, you are excused for five minutes.
--- The jury retires. 12:45 p.m.
--- The
witness retires.
--- Short adjournment.
--- Upon resuming.
--- The witness returns to
the stand.
--- The jury enters. 12:50 p.m.
MR CHRISTIE: I think, Dr Vrba, you were telling us why
you were of exceptional value that you should have
been given a surgical operation to save your life.
A. I am quite sure I didn't tell it in those words.
Q. No. I asked in those words. I suggested to you that
that could be the only explanation why you would be
saved and given a surgical operation and nobody else,
and everybody else be killed when they are sick.
A. Well, you are again misrepresenting something which
was written in the book, and if you will allow me, and
if Your Honour allows me, I am rectifying this
misrepresentation.
Q. Well, I will be glad to hear your explanation.
A. When I became very sick I wasn't able to go to
work any more and I was put into the Krankenbau where
I was for about one week, and it was known, there were
in Auschwitz I, there were eight hundred or nine
hundred dying people there from various diseases, and
during that time I have made some connection with
someone who has got flu among the prisoners in the
camp, there was a German prisoner called Bruno who was
the head of Kanada ---
Q. Just a minute. Kanada
didn't exist in Birkenau remember?
A. No. This
was in Auschwitz. The operation took place in
Auschwitz. You would help me if you would do your
homework.
THE COURT: Just answer the
question, Doctor.
THE WITNESS: And after a week
of time I have found the connection of this Kapo,
Bruno, who was obliged to me for a personal favour.
This means that I didn't give away that he stole
something from somebody else under torture, in
consequence of which I suffered this reversal in my
health. And this Kapo, Bruno, had access to the
properties in Kanada which were confiscated from the
murdered Jews and found ways to get them into his
pockets before they reach the pockets of the S.S. He
was a thief, too, and he used that to bribe a certain
doctor, Dr Derring, who was surgeon formerly before
the War, on the medical school in Warsaw, and for
proper reward he took the risk to operate, make a
serious surgery on a Jewish prisoner. So this was
against the rules.
So he performed this surgery
and he performed it successfully. It was an excellent
surgeon who, unfortunately, wasn't too well equipped;
but the situation is different, and you managed to
misrepresent it as if I would say that I am somebody
unusual.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. I had only luck
that somebody helped me in a critical moment.
Q. Mm-hmmm. And your evidence is that nobody else got
that kind of treatment, is it?
A. I wouldn't
say that nobody else. I would only say that such a
treatment was available under suitable star
constellation, if I may put it that way.
Q.
Star constellation?
A. Constellation of stars.
It is a bit of luck, with connections, and not
sufficient control from the S.S. who is being operated
on it was possible, occasionally, to make a successful
operation on a Jew with a risk.
Q. Well, you were considered a Jew?
A. Of
course.
Q. You were considered a political
prisoner?
A. No. I was considered a Jew.
Q. You were not considered a political prisoner.
A. No.
Q. You never indicated that at any
time.
A. In my book?
Q. At any time.
A. I indicated in my book that I have been taken
to the concentration camp Maidanek from the
concentration camp in Novaki (phonetic) with one
thousand other Jews in a family transport of Jews to
the concentration camp of Novaki. I mentioned even a
number of Jews who were with me, and I mentioned that
from the people who were sent with me, I was the only
one who was sent alive, and if you will read the book
carefully, I am sure you will be able to confirm what
I said here under oath.
Q. So you did not claim
to be a political prisoner.
A. No, I did not
claim to be a political prisoner.
Q. And in the
War Refugee Report that you were supposed to have
prepared it said the words, and I quote:
"Finally
we were issued a set of prisoners' clothes similar to
those we had worn in Lublin and were enrolled as
political prisoners in the concentration camp of
Auschwitz."
Was that you?
A. I must first check on it. It is my copy which I
received, because you might, by error, give me
something to read which is not quite so.
Q.
That's possible. Page 29 of the War Refugee Board
Report.
A. Yes.
Q. Lublin is where
Maidanek is, isn't it?
A. That's right.
Q. And that is you, isn't it?
A. That's right.
And which line are you referring to?
Q. The
last line on page 29.
A. Yes. Political
prisoners in the concentration camp of Auschwitz. Now,
this is the Report as I wrote it, it was in the Slovak
language from which it was translated into the German
language, from which it was translated into the
English language, and there is an error in translation
which I can explain if I am allowed to go, again, to
the projector.
THE COURT: Just a moment. Mr
Christie?
MR CHRISTIE: I have no objection.
THE COURT: Yes.
------------------------------
This is part 3 of the Testimony of Dr Rudolf Vrba, transcript of the 1985 Ernst Zündel trial in Toronto.
part
2
part
4
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